Balance changes.

[Lynx]

I've returned from DotA 2 to Island Defense to see what progress Neco's map have done. I've played the map quite a bit and feel it is rather unbalanced since games tend to be obvious one sided stomps favoring either the Titan or the Builders, and more often than not it is favoring the builders. I don't think I've ever played a game that has been balanced and either party could win until the final moment of the game. This might be because of the playerbase skill has been reduced, but that shouldn't matter since the game should be balanced according to player skill. I have come up with some changes that I feel are appropriate to make the games more balanced and fair to both parties. Here is the list.

• Nerfs to demonoligist
  
• Workers
  
• Decrease HP so they have 155 hp
  
• Remove magic resistance (if they have any lol.)
  
• -Balthasar
  
• Can now be researched in RC.
  
• Needs the following to be able to research; Forbidden summoning techniques, Game abusing structures technique*New upgrade, and Merchant.
  
• Reduce armor
  
• Reduce damage slightly
  Pool of ancient ritual
  
• Increased lumber cost to 2000lumber
  
• Demonic Strength
  
• Change scaling per level to 5g and 150 lumber(from 3g and 125 lumber)
  
• Decrease hp of the arachnids and fel hounds from the upgrades
  
• Decrease the damage of the demonic overlords from the upgrades.
  
• Game abusing structures technique*New upgrade
• available in RC
  
• Costs 20gold 2000lumber
  
• Enables Pools of ancient rituals and book building to be built.
  
  -Increase Tauren armor like wtf happened? he was immortal before, now he is murloc level tanky
  -Decrease armor of natures hunter.
  -Decrease movespeed of natures hunter
  -Remove lumber from titan. Pretty useless feature if it isnt changed, for instance adding a reliable way of obtaining it.
  -Add courier as a starting ability in mound.
  -Increase movespeed of titan minions.
  -Buff items available to the Titan. Some items are pretty useless and is never bought.
  -Remove useless items available to the Titan. To decrease confusion to new players.
  -Increase Titans starting gold to 15
  -Increase Titans random gold to 25
  -Remove Titaning randoming items.
  -Add game game abusing mechanics to bug list as a ceremonial feature.
  -Revert tech-tree back to 3.0.9d's version.
  -Revert golding back to 3.0.9d's version. As in you wait 1 sec then get 1 gold, not get 1 gold then wait 1 sec. In this version you can get 2 gold by having an effective time spent golding at 1.1 seconds instead of 2. 1g should be equal to 1 sec.
  -Increase gold gained from shelters to 2
  -Decrease feeding reduction from scaling as hard as it does now. Make it increase slowly until it peaks hard at about 700-800 exp fed.
  -Remove Bubonicuses minion called "Ebola" since it's the only one being a real disease (iirc?).isn't even funny lol. rename it to "game abusing mechanic" or something similar for quality laughs and to maximize drama on forums
  -Enable Item jumping to be able to be done with demonicus invisibilty

*Name can be changed if necessary.

Expected changes to games:Titans will receive more experience and gold. More players will be inclined to try Titan since it will be easier. Retarded shit will be removed/changed. Demonoligist can no longer solo a level 8 titans with 9 minions. Demonoligist winrate will decrease. Titan winrate will increase.
TL;DR: Fuck Demonoligist, buff Titan

[Merex]

Your nerf request on Demonoligist is truly ridiculous. Firstly, your argument sounds like an enraged stomped who fell victim to the burnshady/omnipotent dual demo upgrade and secondly, you want Neco to remove half of his starting HP and get rid of anything related to his necessary survival? Do you even see the logic in that? Thirdly, your game abusing w.e is ridiculous because starting lumber for demo isn't as op as it seems with dubs and it's first upgrade taking priority and lastly, you want pubstomper Winrate to increase? Ha.

[TooNoobForU]

u can basically kill demo summons with 9 minions ? o-o

could had just post this to suggestions @Lynx

also neco may or may not agree to the following tho :3 but its worth a try!!

[Lynx]

Your nerf request on Demonoligist is truly ridiculous. Firstly, your argument sounds like an enraged stomped who fell victim to the burnshady/omnipotent dual demo upgrade and secondly, you want Neco to remove half of his starting HP and get rid of anything related to his necessary survival? Do you even see the logic in that? Thirdly, your game abusing w.e is ridiculous because starting lumber for demo isn't as op as it seems with dubs and it's first upgrade taking priority and lastly, you want pubstomper Winrate to increase? Ha.

Are you serious or what? Worker=/=main builder. I have yet to experience the so called "burnshady/omnipotent dual demo" but it sounds like blietzkrieg and it makes me want to challenge it. I have though played multiple Titan games vs demonoligist has been ridiculously OP, especially if you compare him to other supportive builders. I think the new upgrade is necessary. Balthasar is so overpowered you either need to nerf the time acquiring him or nerf the hero to the ground. I want new people learning Titan and teaching themselves to carry instead of being carried.

This isn't a troll post or a joke thread so go ahead and have serious and mannered discussions, instead of being afraid of getting caught being serious in a troll post.

u can basically kill demo summons with 9 minions ? o-o

I was overreacting, but balthasar + minions can solo 3 level 5 minions with ease.

[Neco]

Most of your argument revolves around serious early game nerfs prior to his survival and armor which is only OP after it's teched and reducing his damage holds little difference alone. How will you get 2k lumber + 3k for both summon upgrades + 1.4k for the first summon upgrade and sac with just a main builder while trying to simultaneously to gold which you also wanna revert for God knows what reason and include an extra 20g and 2k lumber for this skill to even access both mid/late game research centers even though pedestal requires gold now? If you wanna focus on nerfs then keep it within his summons because just like you've witnessed his power, I've also witnessed many failed attempts and downfalls. How much do you wanna bet my and possibly other insights on that will be greater than the successful outcomes?

[Burn]

Agreed to nerf Demonologist, here's my take on it:

Overlord research cost decreased to 5G 500W
Demonologist Doubles cost increased to 20G 4000W
Demonic Pool cost increased to 1500W
Health stone research increased to 5G 250W
Sacrifice research increased to 5G 1000W
No worker magic resistance, HP reduced to 160

Demonolgist walls rework:
Walls now start at 400HP, but with 0 armour.
Each 5 armour costs 500 wood with around 10 second upgrade time.
+50 HP to wall costs 500W.
another +50HP to wall costs 500W

This results in 500HP 15armour walls for no gold. To further upgrade this wall, it costs 1G to transform it into a maximum of 750HP 20Armour walls with the life-stealing ability that Neco has.

I agree to every other balance, except:

I like the titan's lumber, titan gets lumber from buildings.
I think titan tech tree is fine, it's a pretty big buff for titan and good for noobs.

A few additions:
Nerf Bubonicus plague so it doesn't kill but lowers to 1HP like 3.0.9d.
Add 2 seconds to Bubonicus Heal CD.
Give Morphling's spell shield back!
Buff Morphling towers by 5 damage on all levels.
Reduce range on Pirate, Goblin, Dryad and Radioactive Hunter by 100.
Reduce SoM magic resistance to 25%, but make it stackable, so four SoM will be 100% magic resistance. (8 eggs)

To fully grasp how OP Demonologist is ATM, here's a replay: https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=5901113

-Burn

[Lynx]

Most of your argument revolves around serious early game nerfs prior to his survival and armor which is only OP after it's teched and reducing his damage holds little difference alone. How will you get 2k lumber + 3k for both summon upgrades + 1.4k for the first summon upgrade and sac with just a main builder while trying to simultaneously to gold which you also wanna revert for God knows what reason and include an extra 20g and 2k lumber for this skill to even access both mid/late game research centers even though pedestal requires gold now? If you wanna focus on nerfs then keep it within his summons because just like you've witnessed his power, I've also witnessed many failed attempts and downfalls. How much do you wanna bet my and possibly other insights on that will be greater than the successful outcomes?

I'm really starting to question if you're on the same page as I am. Let's get some facts straight. I don't want to nerf the builder Demonoligists health, I want to make his 3 lady succubi workers die to a level 2 nuke. I do not want to remove the magic resistance of the builder Demonoligist, I want to remove the magic resistance of his workers IF they had any. Your arguments towards his ability to gather lumber seems unbuilded since now he is a lumbering machine with g2l + 3 workers. He doesn't really have any problems lumbering the current lumber he needs for upgrades, he can constantly research almost. With the proposed changes, the only added lumber cost will be separating his early game to late game. His peaks in the game will change, Early game he will pose a threat to the titan with early summons, Mid game he will fall off as the summons will be too easy to kill. Late game demonoligist will become relevent once more as he have acquired upgrades to make him do so. What I proposed to change isn't too much of a nerf to his summons/ability to kill off minions/titans. It is more to balance out the game time at the builder peaks so he isn't relevant all game.

titan gets lumber from buildings.

I didn't know this. So I'm fine with lumber being in ID.
EDIT: I pressed quote instead of edit on my previous posts and I didnt notice. Can someone remove the posts I posted extra.

[Neco]

Some good ideas but mostly a strange execution on how to solve problems.

@Lynx

• Yes, Demonologist is currently too strong and yes he will be changed. This is already known and has been planned out for the next version.
• Yes, Tauren isn't such a tank now. He will be getting more upgrades to allow him to increase his combat viability.
• I like the idea of Nature's hunter not being as tanky, but I still think he should be the tank-part of his army. This is a good suggestion.
• Lumber is a nice subtle buff to the Titan as it doesn't take away from his 3.0.9d form but instead allows for expansion. The system will be fleshed out, don't you worry. For now however, it's a beta and a beta system so don't expect things to be set in stone (I like the Courier suggestion for example). Also I think I'd better note that you get lumber from killing structures and from killing workers. It's an incentive to kill lumber bases (at least, that's the idea).
• The Titan's available to the Titan are being worked on. Not sure if you noticed but Regen Spines have been buffed recently so that part is being looked into.
• Not sure if you know this again, but you have a chance to random items as a Titan even if you pick. It's just not guaranteed. I agree that starting gold could be slightly more, but I actually like the current tradeoff of getting an early pearl vs. having your Ankh for example. So not sure how I'm going to proceed with this (maybe more starting lumber, which can be converted into gold for an early pearl? Another good trade off since other lumber-cost upgrades would be pushed back as a consequence).
• As for tech tree changes, they're (obviously) not complete at the moment. I'm moving Defender tech into a malleable state so that they can be expanded on to increase the variability and variety in each tree. This is a long process, the fruits of which you'll start to see in the next version I'm sure.
• I find Golding right now fine actually, it feels more responsive. I like responsive feelings in a game as clunky as WC3, so this will most likely stay as is (which I'm sure is a minor complaint on your part, so hopefully not too bad!).
• Feed scaling is something that needs to be looked into, however I disagree that it falls off too hard right now. I may start experimenting with games selecting a random feed algorithm to collect statistics and work from there (which is now possible due to the MMD system changes I've been working on).
• As for Demonicus Invisibility, it's not really possible in the abilities current state. And I think it's fine, since 3.0.9d Demonicus couldn't even move while windwalked so it's not really a nerf... If you're really keen to use item jump then you can always buy a windcatcher!

@Burn

• Again, going to ignore most of the Demonologist changes. I agree with the nerfs but I don't want his tech tree to cost much more. Instead I think there should be more barriers in upgrades (such as requiring more other upgrades), or splitting upgrades up (such as summoned Demon upgrades into seperate offensive / defensive upgrades).
• I'm quite set on setting Bubonicus's plague cloud to not kill units next version, so you'll be happy there!
• The heal cooldown increase is also something needed, but I'm not sure if it will really reduce Bubonicus's OPness enough. In my opinion, more needs to be done around corpse generation, as it's currently too easy late game to have heaps! There are some changes in the upcoming versions to reflect this.
• Spell Shield for Morphling is a difficult ability, however I may be able to find a way to have the same effect. It's simply difficult as the original Blizzard spell is a bug-fest so everything needs to be triggered (including showing a cooldown... somehow?). I'll look into it.
• Hunter range reductions... they deserve being looked at but if they force the unit to come within nuke range by 100 or so then I'm happy.
• Stackable Magic Resistance is a good idea to revive a "useless" item and can probably be hacked in with a few tricks. I'll look into this as well.

So, those are my opinions. You're welcome to try and change them but currently that's where I stand.

I hope you realize that my plans are for much more than I'm currently doing and the only restriction is the time I have to spend editing the map. I know there are problems but there is only so much I can do so don't think that everything will always be the way it is! That's all I'd really want you to take away from this I guess.

[lordmillt]

+1 on that tauren armor. uhm, what was wrong with the old armor anyways? 2stronk? those demo nerfs doe.

[Lynx]

Yes, Demonologist is currently too strong and yes he will be changed. This is already known and has been planned out for the next version.

The problem currently with demonoligist is that he is an powerhouse throughout the game and always stays relevant in terms of power. Compare this all the other supportive builders that are very weak early game and then peak mid-late game. Demonoligist has always been fine since his walls were shit, but now when they are actually good he is way too strong. The builder can do everything except basing. I'm basically fine with any demonoligist nerf you might have as long they make him not fit every role in the game.

[*]I like the idea of Nature's hunter not being as tanky, but I still think he should be the tank-part of his army. This is a good suggestion.

I wasn't suggesting this because I thought it would be a nice feature. More like because the hunter is way too hard to kill.

[*]Lumber is a nice subtle buff to the Titan as it doesn't take away from his 3.0.9d form but instead allows for expansion. The system will be fleshed out, don't you worry. For now however, it's a beta and a beta system so don't expect things to be set in stone (I like the Courier suggestion for example). Also I think I'd better note that you get lumber from killing structures and from killing workers. It's an incentive to kill lumber bases (at least, that's the idea).

I didn't know you got lumber for killing structures but now that I know I think it's k.

[*]The items available to the Titan are being worked on. Not sure if you noticed but Regen Spines have been buffed recently so that part is being looked into.

These are pretty useless items imo. Energy rod, ethereal mirror, fiery claws, titanic trident, force trident, mystic coral(was good on breeze so might be fine when breeze returns), gauntlets of rage, msog(no sat yet), hotd(decent item actually just a bit to expensive), ankh of power.

[*]Not sure if you know this again, but you have a chance to random items as a Titan even if you pick. It's just not guaranteed. I agree that starting gold could be slightly more, but I actually like the current tradeoff of getting an early pearl vs. having your Ankh for example. So not sure how I'm going to proceed with this (maybe more starting lumber, which can be converted into gold for an early pearl? Another good trade off since other lumber-cost upgrades would be pushed back as a consequence).

starting with 15g isn't game breaking. Newbies should have the ability to train one titan and start with pearl. Titan skill requirement needs to be reduced due to the current playerbase basically.

[*]As for tech tree changes, they're (obviously) not complete at the moment. I'm moving Defender tech into a malleable state so that they can be expanded on to increase the variability and variety in each tree. This is a long process, the fruits of which you'll start to see in the next version I'm sure.

thing with tech tree is that you should need 90g to max out tower dps. now you need 45 which is a bit too good because it's hard preventing builders to gold.

[*]I find Golding right now fine actually, it feels more responsive. I like responsive feelings in a game as clunky as WC3, so this will most likely stay as is (which I'm sure is a minor complaint on your part, so hopefully not too bad!).

this isnt as minor as you might think. It is a lot harder preventing builders from golding than it was in the previous version. It completely removes seacows infamous strat together with the double wotw change(why was this removed?). Sure it might feel more smooth now but it sure isn't balanced. [/list]

[Burn]

The problem with 3.0.9d Tauren was he was basically unkillable, unless you had double or triple wand for his charge (assuming he doesn't wand deto). Basically why I played him so much. You can easily camp gold mound 24/7 without worrying about WW at the start of the game. Now that wand has CD, titan needs to double wand with mound, or get insane amounts of damage like with Bubo's WW crit + stun nuke (and even then).

Also, to nerf Bubo more, make it so that his nuke is channeling, right now it is basically near-instant cast. Combine that with a WW crit, that basically gives ez minions.

So, those are my opinions. You're welcome to try and change them but currently that's where I stand.

I'll try not to waste my time changing your mind, since I know Shadowzz will definitely be on the opposite side posing on the other side and we'll just end up wasting each other's time. For now, I've given up on arguing for suggestions, I will just put my suggestions out there, and maybe someday you will feel up to the implementation.

I have a different mindset as you in terms of balance changes, I'll still post my suggestions, and you can just do what you think is best, we might complain, but in the end at this rate, even if you do something I strongly disagree with like removing wall walk, I'll still continue to play, because there's still sheep tag walking.

-Burn

[narbtit]

nooooo not my nat hunter!
But other than that I agree. One problem is with a noob base, or if titan breaks a base, he will get op reaaaly fast even moreso than now. I would almost say walls give 2g instead of 1g though.
And good titans like fishy will destroy even worse :<
Also agree with demo being op, when I was titaning a while ago, well it was mostly balth. If he gets one bones its over. Also the demo controlling it non-stop blink followed my mini until he killed it. Its mostly balth for me that is op as **********.
Also: nuoooo not my dryad hunter!

edit: what is the nuke range of titans now? 600? 700? I'm trying to find out.

[ShadowZz]

@Burn I completely agree with you about Tauren and Bubonicus does need to be nerfed as at the moment as soon as he hits like level 8 no base can stand vs him

@Lynx Wotw has been nerfed via adding a cooldown for a simple reason. The way abilities/escapes should work is that every ability should have a counter and then those counters should have a counter from a game development point of view. For example, if a Titan windwalks to kill a Murloc and hit him then the Murloc counters by using Panic to run away, then the Titan counters using wotw, and the Murloc TP's. Problem is it became a recessive cycle whereby all abilities were countered by wotw. So if you ever caught a builder out of position and you had 2 wotw's on a competent Titan then the builder would die 9/10 times which is bad for game experience and overall game balance.

The only other thing I really want to comment on would be Titan items:

I completely agree Energy Rod needs to be either removed or amended as it's uses are basically non-existant and it's only used every like 1/100 games (Probably more).

Ethereal Mirror is far from useless. I see it used all the time and I don't know how much you have used it yourself but if you get a early minion and buy it straight away. Let's say people are still standing near middle to gold then you just use Ethereal Mirror on a builder in the walls and two level one nukes will kill every builder except for Tauren which requires a level one and a level two nuke. It's really good at taking out rewallers and once you get used to using it you can even Ethereal Mirror your own Titan so as he get's even more heal from minions.

Fiery claws are a nice item as a stepping stone due to you no longer needing the extra hit on walls or shelters early game due to burn damage taking it away. Has it's uses in scalability with other recipe's as well.

I understand what your thinking but I think you need to look at the fact that not every item should be good enough to be one of the luxury 6 endgames or even play a part in being them. Some items should literally just be there for early game damage (Fiery Claws), early game mana regen (Mystic Coral) and some just as a stepping stone to help you move around the map and farm (Gauntlets Of Rage, MSoG).

[ApomTom]

@Lynx Wotw has been nerfed via adding a cooldown for a simple reason. The way abilities/escapes should work is that every ability should have a counter and then those counters should have a counter from a game development point of view. For example, if a Titan windwalks to kill a Murloc and hit him then the Murloc counters by using Panic to run away, then the Titan counters using wotw, and the Murloc TP's. Problem is it became a recessive cycle whereby all abilities were countered by wotw. So if you ever caught a builder out of position and you had 2 wotw's on a competent Titan then the builder would die 9/10 times which is bad for game experience and overall game balance.

Wotw (5g) is countered by detting a worker (0g).

[ShadowZz]

The word "countered" in that scenario is sketchy at best. The only time that ever occurs is in inhouse games and even then it's not really a counter when you can instantly use another wotw. Even if we were to say that detonating a worker was a counter to wotw then the Titan just casts another and it has no effect. Surely you can see that?