Balance changes.

[Stealer]

Isn't the builder being caught out of position their own fault?

It's not like the Titan starts ww'd at a random spot in the map.
The builders make the choice to walk into an unknown area when they get caught out.

Also the Murloc still has probably 3 seconds of panic left so they just run away instead of tp.

Losing 10g to double worker det is actually a big deal especially early game if they were camping for a mini. I've seen plenty of Titans burn 30+ gold to wotws which didn't pay out due to workers.
A competent builder should have no problem moving around safely and having workers for mid wotw.

[Lynx]

Isn't the builder being caught out of position their own fault?

this. Island Defense is a risk vs reward type of game, and the reward should be equal to the risk. Not larger.

[Stealer]

Wotw though should have a cool down but more like 3 seconds because triple wanding is just anti-fun.

It's like 2x mag supporters pre-neutralize


And so you'd still be able to get away if you detted and Titans could get the ones who didn't.

[Lynx]

make it cap at 2 stocks tho

[Neco]

I think the cooldown is fine as it is, as it prevents double-wanding. All your suggestions for lowering the cooldown to under the duration time does nothing and is pointless (since when has a Titan ever wanded two builders at the same time?).

I think there should be other methods added that produce similar effects as the desired one rather than keeping an old method overpowered. For instance, in some cases a Mirror would do better than a Wand. There should be more variety like that in my opinion rather than a default catch-all guaranteed kill method.

[Stealer]

I think the cooldown is fine as it is, as it prevents double-wanding.

And we're argueing that double-wanding is fine.

All your suggestions for lowering the cooldown to under the duration time does nothing and is pointless (since when has a Titan ever wanded two builders at the same time?).

It allows double wanding and prevents titan from instantly-rewanding detting wotws creating a counter for wotw.

Wotw is fairly poor vs almost every escape anyways pretty much just beats teleport. It does work as a good gap closer vs units with only slows (Mag / Morph) but srs just throw a couple turtles near the titan or a slow on the titan and the wotw is now useless.

Double wands is an investment early game. If you get it early on you have to forgo ankh, feet, or pearl. If you get it later on builders are more likely to be safe behind walls and maybe workers as well as some of the builders may have a nice chunk of gold and anybody you kill becomes a liability.

I think there should be other methods added that produce similar effects as the desired one rather than keeping an old method overpowered. For instance, in some cases a Mirror would do better than a Wand.

Oh man, wotw + mirror what options we have.
How expensive is mirror? 25? holy cow, let me just sell this ankh here and walk out of middle with 100 damage and a mirror.
Mirror almost acts as an escape for builders also since you can only nuke etheral. Sure if you have a mini/couple you can mirror nuke but the primary point of double / triple wand is to get the first mini.

There should be more variety like that in my opinion rather than a default catch-all guaranteed kill method.

Its not guaranteed at all. I would like a variety of ways of getting lumber than just with shelters.

[Burn]

Yep, buff wotw please. 3-4s cooldown would be better. Atm at 10s cooldown wotw is becoming a pretty shitty item, and now that it's easier to gold at mid, it's harder to get a minion in inhouses.

-Burn

[ShadowZz]

Yes, good idea, let's just ignore the fact Titan can stop builder at middle in a variety of ways like mound wotw with Titan wotw, ward blocking, mirror, catching people out with that once in a life time windcatcher that nobody uses and just replace it with an OP item that was completely broken. There are options against builders already. In my opinion there should be more options, but people need to get to a point where one item beats all just simply doesn't exist. It's bad for game experience for players if you repeatedly die to wotw, escape ability, wotw, escape ability, wotw, teammates escape ability, wotw...................................... You get my point.

I'm sure someone can come up with a different item with more uses to create more functionality and better game play.

Side note: @Neco maybe this should just be added to the suggestions thread?

[Lynx]

sure can take a builder of surprise, but it is countered by the builder being able to see mana in mound and denying workers.

sure, but unreliable and if you mess up it has cost you 5/10gold.

useless item for its price.

who even buys this? great you have a minion now but you also have a windcatcher and lost 20g.[/quote]

There are options against builders already

options are diminishing and it makes playing builder easier and easier. especially with all these new juke paths.

You do know denying a builder will dispell wotw?

[ShadowZz]

@Lynx If your gonna quote me atleast don't be ignorant of what I say > "There are options against builders already. In my opinion there should be more options"

Yes I know wotw is dispelled by a worker but that arguably means nothing due to if there was no cooldown then I instantly cast another. Are you seriously saying you think the majority of games have workers at middle ready to dispell wotw because if that's the case I suggest you go play more games zzz. You can't balance the game based on inhouse level skill and this conversation has been had before. inhouse games don't account for even 1% of the total games.

As for the other stuff in the order you quoted:
You can see that the Titan has mana I don't see how it's relevant that seeing the mound has mana means it doesn't work. People still gold exactly the same when the mound has mana and 95% of players don't even check.
You buy eternal/titanic wards most games if not all anyway so you only investing 5g in an extra ward and @Burn and @Fossurious can tell you ward blocking is reliable if you know how to do it. They pull it off 9/10 times and it's a valuable skill to learn.
Many players including Fossurious buy this item straight after buying pearl and arguably win games because of it, feel free to enquire with them about how useful Ethereal Mirror is. Also if your sieging a base it effectively gives you like an extra 800heal with 5-6 minions if you use it on yourself before healing. I fail to see how it instantly healing you the amount of a full Life Essence is not good? Again I think you should spend a little more time playing and experimenting with the item first.
I actually agree that Wind Catcher is a unused item for the most part. It should either be cheaper. Or what I'd rather see is that it went towards a recipe for a new item that gives more benefits late game rather than Shadow Catcher. But it is still a very situational item (On Demo for item jumpingfor example).

I hope you understand where I'm coming from with this...

[Stealer]

Yes I know wotw is dispelled by a worker but that arguably means nothing due to if there was no cooldown then I instantly cast another.

Which is why we revised the stance to 3-4 second cd.
And countered isn't "sketchy" at best. Its countered. Your wotw is gone. You dump 15g into wotws (which "back in the day" were 3 item slots you had to forfeit) only to get 2 detted (at least 2) and the third only causes about 7 seconds of the panic to be nullifed. Good job you maybe got the hit when the builder landed but they certainly finished their panic away. Especially if a demo or something existed and just swamped you with summons.

Triple wotw did not always result in kills and single wotw pretty much never did.

Are you seriously saying you think the majority of games have workers at middle ready to dispell wotw because if that's the case I suggest you go play more games zzz.

So because builders don't use the counters the need for the counter should be removed?

Titans only put coral+pot into mound for pearl/wotw. If its 250/250 of the time there is a wand.

Eternal / Titanic are "early" purchases. Usually picked up post 5mins / first minion. We're arguing to assist in getting the first minion not win the game.
Wardblock only works vs incompetent builders anyways.
Oh man, using etheral mirror with 5-6 minions, that'll help you get a mini. Has nothing to do with the 5-6 minis you already had, all mirror.
WC << WW, if WW doesn't help you get a kill WC doesn't (except demo item jump).


There are very few low cost ways for titan to get kills.
Pretty much item-jump & wotw are the only sub5 gold ways to do so.
Ward blocking is at least 10g and easily can be 15g for some of those mid walls especially if they attack the first ward.
Neutralize is 15g and only really works vs late game escapes (rage / avatar. If you neutralize a murloc's panic they can just tp...

Ya'll bitch about how I don't play titan, but it can be seriously hard to get first mini if everybody plays safe. Like think about your games with early deaths, its usually some retard walling incorrectly and gets item-jump or afk at mound during a tp. There really isn't any skill involved in either of those cases. Item jumping isn't very hard, just look for diagonal walls and tp is no skill.

[Lynx]

Yes I know wotw is dispelled by a worker but that arguably means nothing due to if there was no cooldown then I instantly cast another

perhaps you haven't had the thought of having 2 workers?

Are you seriously saying you think the majority of games have workers at middle ready to dispell wotw because if that's the case I suggest you go play more games zzz

when we euros played in 3.0.9d all of the games vs good titans had workers at mid. of course there isn't any now since you can't 2x wotw with solo titan.

You can't balance the game based on inhouse level skill and this conversation has been had before. inhouse games don't account for even 1% of the total games.

I agree and that's why titan should be buffed and builder nerf'd so new people can try titan.

You can see that the Titan has mana I don't see how it's relevant that seeing the mound has mana means it doesn't work.

If you see that the mound has mana means that the titan has purposely bought mana stone + used a reg potion in mound. that means you should be more catious + get workers when golding.

People still gold exactly the same when the mound has mana and 95% of players don't even check.

are you paralympic?

(On Demo for item jumpingfor example)

please don't abuse game mechanics.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from with this...

no I don't. Your arguments are shit, and you reek of inexperience.

[Stealer]

Titan just need early game buff, it scales much better than the builders.
Sure "infinite" gold probably helps builders win more due to gold towers (perma-chicken / stun) and towers like toxic do a shitton of damage but titan has much larger peaks when he gets things like AoF.

[ShadowZz]

If your going to blatantly ignore valid arguments and start flaming inexperience then I'll simply stop replying Lynx.

@Cambrioleur Every time I suggest nerfing builders early game potential every one rages and says I only want to nerf things and now your telling me that that's what needs to happen? Oh the irony....

As for wotw having a 3-4 sec cd that means you would wotw and when it finishes the cd would already be done ready to wotw again. The current wotw cd is double it's duration or there abouts.... Yes I know what deto is but if your argument is that people need to start leaving harvesters at middle and you both don't understand why that's not going to work then there's no point us talking about it. I mean because obviously every player knows that deto removes wotw. It's such a well known fact that Deto has a tooltip saying "removes wotw". Oh wait, it doesn't.

Instead of whining about not being able to only use 1 item to kill builders why don't you put your energy into thinking of a new item that is more useful and benefits gameplay.

@Cambrioleur Your right, you don't Titan. Like ever. I'm willing to bet you haven't spent time trying to use Ethereal Mirror at all. I don't fully understand what this means > "Oh man, using etheral mirror with 5-6 minions, that'll help you get a mini. Has nothing to do with the 5-6 minis you already had, all mirror."

Ethereal mirror can help you get a minion. I was simply saying that it isn't a useless item if it doesn't. It has other uses and can benefit you mid/late game as well. You can also save your minions with it if their being ganked because they take no damage whilst mirrored.

For your last post I completely agree. Titan does indeed need early/mid game buffs but wotw is not the solution to that. More functionality both with Titans general gameplay like his ability to scout and move around the map along with a better variety of items for specific usage.
Toxic should be rightly nerfed in respects to Hunters mirror image basically tripling it's damage.
In my opinion Armor of Fate should be split to two items with lower cost. One focusing of the evasion and block. The other focusing on the armor and hp. Gives a better trade off when deciding which to buy and gives more variety to items whilst not affecting overall balance.

Off-topic: There's no point sitting here and going down the "I have more experience" route. It's a pointless and repetitive cycle that people think they are better than one another. If someone with 100 games played comes and makes a suggestion then your opinion is no more valid than theirs. So please get your head out of your ass and stop with the "Your arguments are shit, and you reek of inexperience" bullshit because it's getting real old, real fast. I've been playing Warcraft 3 for 10+ years. I've been playing ID just as long.

[Lynx]

your arguments are shit

valid arguments

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Suggestions are fine if inexperienced players suggest. Balance changes is another thing tho since you actually need experience about the game in order to make it balanced. How long you've played ID is irrelevant, it's game time that matters and even then some players might not have enough experience to balance.