More discussion about jumping

[SpiritBreaker]

Edit: This post of mine has more turned into a checklist of things for me to test, but if any of you have tested any of them, or have more things to test related to jumping, feel free to post!

Since we went off-topic and started talking about jumping here, I decided to continue in this new topic.

My questions will relate to this post:

Spoiler!

If you want to move as close between the two shelters as possible, here is how I usually do it (Sometimes you have to change because of slopes)

For this particular item jump (WITH PICTURES!):
Top left shelter is shelter one
Bot right shleter is shelter two

1) Use move command to shelter one
2) Use move command(or right click) to the centre of where you think you are supposed to be so both selection circles of the shelters overlap with yours.
2.1) The centre is aligned with the right side of shelter one, and the top side of shelter two. (you can spam click this) [ img ]
3)Move command back to shelter one to make titan face the shelter.

4) Drop item in the centre of the red target: [ img ]
5) Pick-up the item to jump over without breaking WW.
5.1) Alternatively, you can also use a skill then press (S) to cancel the skill to pop over, but it will break WW. This is used mainly for jumping into bases.


Further notes and explanations:

- You only have to overlap selection circles and be touching the other one to jump over, but you'll have to be more precise with the item drop placement.
- The reason why you have to go through all this work is because the two shelters are on a slope, shelter one is on higher ground than the other.
- Basically, you have to prevent your unit from turning clockwise (towards shelter two), or the titan will bug out and pathing will make you move, which is why the third step is recommended so that you will turn anti-clockwise.

Burn

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EDIT: This question is kind of answered by this recent guide which I just saw now.
Question 1: What interactions, other than what Burn posted above, cause the WC3 engine to attempt to jump you? (Sounds like someone trying to mug you in an alley.)

@Burn You said that one can either pick up the item to jump through or issue and cancel skills, and that the latter is mainly used for jumping into bases.

As far as I know however, other commands will also cause the WC3 engine to realize the hitbox overlap and attempt to move you away from the item.

Example: (Note: the following paragraph was in spoiler tags, but when I clicked them, it kept opening the above spoiler tags, with Burn's post, instead, so removed these ones.)
In fact, here is an interesting thing from my experience in standard Warcraft 3. If any of you played it extensively, you will know that surrounding units is very effective when you outnumber your opponent and they attempt to run away. The Orc's Blademaster however, has the Wind Walk ability. If you Wind Walk over to your surrounded unit (Grunt, usually) and break Wind Walk on top of the Grunt (by attacking one of the surrounding enemies, usually), then issue a Move command with your Grunt, the Grunt will be jumped out. Something interesting however, is if you time it right, and issue a Move command on both the Grunt AND the Blademaster, BOTH will be jumped out. Note however, that the latter only works if the enemy units have a very tight surround. If the surround is not tight, you will have to move your unit to one corner, move your Blademaster to the unit's corner away from the surround corner (hard to explain without screenshots) and then break WW and issue the move command on your unit. Otherwise, the unit will be jumped to a position that is still inside the surround.

When I did an item jump recently, I dropped the item and then issued a move command and was jumped through.

So for example, if you are WW'd and overlapping with an item, and you drop another item, will the WC3 engine attempt to jump you?
If not, then you can perform jumps faster by affording to be less precise. You can just issue an approximate move command between the two structures you want to jump, and shift queue 2-4 item drops and an action that triggers the jump, no?

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Question 2: Is it possible to stay overlapping with an item (while you are WW'd) after issuing a command that triggers a jump? (Perhaps if the nearest empty space is further than the maximum jump distance?) If so, can you trigger another jump by simply issuing another command?

What I mean by jumped more than once is, let's say I dropped an item, issued an action to trigger the WC3 engine to jump me, and minimally, if it all, changed location due to the jump, but was still overlapping with the item. And let's say the a builder then cancelled a nearby building, which now allows me to jump to where the building was. Will the WC3 engine jump me there if I now issue an action?


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I understand that this post has plenty of questions and I don't expect anyone to know the answers (at least not to all) without testing them first.
I really need a testing partner for some of these, as one person has to be Titan and the other a Builder.

Anyone up for testing stuff with me, probably on a regular basis?

[Lynx]

Q1: Burrow jumping, mass unit windwalk jumping, ward jumping (?) are the ones i can think of at the moment, perhaps there is another type that i have forgotten.

Q2: yes.

also, improve formatting and isolate questions and i'll answer more if there are any.

[SpiritBreaker]

Q1: Burrow jumping

I completely forgot about Foss (since he isn't currently in-game). You just unburrow on top of other units (usually your minis) and you get jumped instantly? Or after issuing a command? (Gotta test it later, but worth asking if someone already has.)

ward jumping (?)

Elaborate please.

[Lynx]

you get jumped instantly after you've exit burrowed state.

Wards dont collide with invisible units. So i guess you could spam wards on high ground where you want to jump (wards should have same position as items would if you'd ij) and then just break invis on top of wards. I have never seen this done so result might not be as expected.

[SpiritBreaker]

Ah, healing wards.

My standard wc3 roots still cause me to default to thinking about observer wards when someone says "wards" (like Gnoll's ability).

Fun fact btw: After one of the wc3 patches, observer wards no longer block buildings from being built. I don't think you can place an observer ward on top of a structure, however. (Whereas you can place a structure on top of an observer ward.)

[Burn]

Lol yeah, ward jumping works, I guess you could use ward to ankh jump, that'll be cool.

Mass windwalk jumping is dumb, because you just blew all your windwalks, and is risky (tested in-game, haha)

Burrow jumping is OP. You can use mini-minis to jump, which means you can basically get every single minion and titan into a base.

Question one: Like Lynx- mentioned, Ankh jump, WW stack jump, phase then unit jump (basically same as WW stack jump), foss jump (basically the same as ankh jump), return lumber item jump

phase unit jump is when you phase on top of a unit by lumbering first then when the game naturally returns lumber once you can't carry any more lumber, which allows you to go through units, then at the precise moment, you press "stop" to jump.

return lumber item jump is you drop an item, then lumber, and the game naturally returns lumber, with a well-placed item, will allow you to jump, because when you return lumber, you collide with items.

Question two: Hard to understand the question, either Lynx- or I am confused by this question, which is probably why we have different answers.

Basically, for you to item long jump, you have to break WW. So if the nearest empty space is more than maximum distance, you won't jump anywhere. Hope that answers your question.

The last question: Just test in single player with -debug mode. Seriously, it works wonders.

-Burn

[SpiritBreaker]

Thanks for your time guys.

If you Return Resources (current hotkey F, standard hotkey E), then WC3 won't make your collision style to be WW (Windwalk style, where you collide with items) but if the unit is full of resources and naturally starts going back to the drop off point, then it is WW-style, correct?

What if on its way back, the last drop-off point is destroyed?

(More stuff to be tested, yay. ID should be renamed to Understanding WC3 Engine: The Map.)

I didn't know about -debug. Rofl.

As I said at the start of the post, after I was done typing, I realized the post turn out to be more of a list of things for me to test, not necessarily for others to understand, due to the complex nature of the topic and the lack of images/videos to help explain. (Not to mention the lack of effort to make it perfectly clear.)

[Burn]

1) Correct.
2) The builder stops.

-Burn

[SpiritBreaker]

2) But with what type of collision? WW-like or not? I guess not.

[Burn]

If you return resources manually, it will have normal collision. If you let the game return resources after hitting the tree, you will walk through units and be blocked by items.

Important note is that you must have hit the tree, if you try to do this with already max lumber (5 hits for normal builders and one for demo/mag), it will not work.

This is also how seed lumber bases work, and why most players deto the whole thing if it gets blocked and start over instead of just making them all right click a tree.

-Burn

[Lynx]

builder item jump

[SpiritBreaker]

Why does the jump happen in the video?
Are units also in WW collision when ordered to harvest lumber?

[Lynx]

Q1:
it works because item hitbox and builder hitbox collides and separates when harvesting lumber.
Q2:
No since there is no other hitbox around to collide with.

[SpiritBreaker]

No Lynx, Q2 was me asking if that's a reason for Q1 happening.

In the video, when does the game make Mak go into WW collision mode? (Which is why the jump happens.)

[Lynx]

it happens when the makrura is swinging a chop at the tree. the reason is because it just is that way i guess, same with item jumping, no reason it just is.