Public's View of Fangorn's Ban

[Fangorn]

There is still no proof of the initiatal claims, yet the ban isn't being lifted. agreements letting other admins handling it, even though there is no need. Anyhow, @yondaime, since you were referred to as being the one who would solve this. Can you please do so? The wrongly placed ban has been in action for too long already

[QTriNitY]

If we look closely at the poll results versus the Replies in this thread, seems like those who voted No are making those replies.

Maybe arty voted yes to Fangorn MH. Lets' hear from Arty about his findings in Game Play which is deemed unacceptable.

I open the Floor to a peek into his replies in the back end section where Admins talk.

I have pm-ed uakf.b again to interfere and speed up the process. If Agreements do not come up with decent arguments on Fangorn's game play that suggest MH, I asked of uakf.b to overthrow the ban till new evidence comes to light.

To me its rather simple, not enough evidence, release the ban.
When sufficient evidence is later gathered, re-ban.

Just like how real life Trials work. Fangorn's stats are always on mercy of ENT, the Host. He can't run nor hide. Whenever Admins has sufficient evidence, re-ban him.
If the Authorities choose to hold an accuse in custody for too long and has no proper evidence, the hearing must be adjourned and Accused released.

Votes are secret, sorry.

Cool, im ok with this answer

[aRt)Y]

As mentioned, cyber or uakf will look at it.
Agreements has given his opinion and he doesn't have to do anything for now.

This whole issue invites people to troll you because of the way you addressed it to the staff/public/agreements.
And since you couldn't keep it in your appeal and spread it all over the forum, I am free to post here.

[QTriNitY]

And so are we. Im a mega troll when its messy in the administration.

Look here, all I wanted to see on behalf of Fangorn is Irrefutable, Undisputed Evidences. So far I'm famished as none is put forth after the Fog Click on NA.

I'm pure hungry for a good challenge and debate to who's hacking and who's mistaking.

Note : In the event that this ban is lifted due to insufficient evidences, I will stop Trolling and vanish from ENT Forums. I know I'm a pain in the Arse to deal with.
But all I crave for is a good call. Seen James Bond's movie with Madonna singing 'Die Another Day'? To me and Fangorn its Ban Another Day aka BAD.

So bring it on!

[spoiler=][/spoiler]

[karasu.]

I have deleted multiple off-topic posts, next spam post will have warnings issued. I want this to stay on topic. I can assure you that we will try to speed this up but I also don't want people insulting each other or being derogatory. You can debate each other but just understand the line between debate and flaming/insulting each other.

[Medicca]

1) Somebody files a ban request for MH
2) Moderators run it through for fogclicks, check for suspicious movements
3) If fogclicks are found or there are many suspicious movements, the moderator moves the topic to Admin Confirmation
4) Multiple other moderators concur or disagree. Eventually a consensus is reached.
5) The violator is banned if found guilty.

I just want to address this issue @Agent. The order that which bans are applied depends on where the ban request comes from:

If the request comes from a player, non-staff, then:

1) Player files a MH ban request, listing either suspicious times or fogclick times
2) A moderator or admin checks for fogclicks and suspicious movements
3) A ban is applied
4) The topic is moved to admin confirmation
5) Another mod or admin verifies. If a 2nd mod or admin finds it insufficient evidence, we unban and ask a 3rd to look at it.
6) Repeat until consensus can be reached.

If the request comes from a staff, then we do it as you've listed. The key difference is when the ban is applied, after 1st staff looks at it or after consensus if reached.

[Fangorn]

If you don't have anything to contribute with arty, you need to stay out from this whole topic. As far as I'm concerned, you are at the moment an admin who spends his time on meaningless comments here, instead of handling ban requests on whatever game you are playing.

I would rather not see a poll either, seeing it as meaningless and non-contributing. It only opens up for a chance for the public to vote according to their emotions, probably not having viewed the original request either, nor the replay.

Update: yondaime said he would look into this tonight (I was told this yesterday aswell).

[aRt)Y]

Legit...
[spoiler=]https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14917
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14869
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14906
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14911[/spoiler]

I told yondy the same and he's aware of the promises he gives.
Anyway, I can only strongly highlight what medicca said: the bans in the category of admin approval are no abuse if a certain evidence is given.
Thus, all those topics in the complaint forum and here are basically pointless.

My contribution from the very beginning is to actually remind you slowing down. You are starting a hype out of nowhere and it seems that you - the who who's actually banned - aren't reading much because I was the one partly agreeing with the delayed click. But it seems qt is doing all the work for you anyway.

Not a single post of yours has yet been useful in terms of (dis)proving something.

[Agent]

I just want to address this issue @Agent. The order that which bans are applied depends on where the ban request comes from:

If the request comes from a player, non-staff, then:

1) Player files a MH ban request, listing either suspicious times or fogclick times
2) A moderator or admin checks for fogclicks and suspicious movements
3) A ban is applied
4) The topic is moved to admin confirmation
5) Another mod or admin verifies. If a 2nd mod or admin finds it insufficient evidence, we unban and ask a 3rd to look at it.
6) Repeat until consensus can be reached.

If the request comes from a staff, then we do it as you've listed. The key difference is when the ban is applied, after 1st staff looks at it or after consensus if reached.

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't really check if/when users were actually banned, just went off information provided in the threads, so that was my mistake.

[Fangorn]

As I said before to arty, if you don't have anything useful to say, don't post here.
Regarding the initial ban, it is completely useless, purely a vendetta. I don't care whether or not you agreed in the first place, just stay out, ty

[QTriNitY]

Relax... You are fine Fangorn.

The most important thing is to clear your name of this wrongful MH call.
My intuition tells me that the Verdict will be one of 'Insufficient Evidence'.

Enjoy the Serenity for now.

Nobody today believes that gamers on WC3 do not hack at least once in their gaming days.
For the Admin who banned you for this is nothing new. How many IPs does the combined ENT, Dotacash and BGN ban for MHing?
And how many are wrongful bans?

You should see yourself special to be one of the 0.0001% to be lucky when the verdict surface.
Buddy, Im watching your back for this stated game which got you banned. Trust me!

And when you are unbanned, show your generosity by thanking the Admin who banned you.
Again, To err is human, to forgive is divine.

[Agent]

And when you are unbanned, show your generosity by thanking the Admin who banned you.
Again, To err is human, to forgive is divine.

"Thanking the admin who banned you"? I think you meant "forgiving the admin who banned you"!

[EdgeOfChaos]

I voted "no" - looks like qtrinity is right about this, fangorn did not MH here.

[QTriNitY]

I voted "no" - looks like qtrinity is right about this, fangorn did not MH here.

Yes, Fangorn was not map hacking in this game. Fangorn, like any other players, may have hacked for we will never know in his earlier games. But since no evidence is available, the Ban must be lifted till other evidences from other replays are brought up.
Agreements' relentless determination to ban using this replay only depicts his determination to ban a player with weak replays.

"Thanking the admin who banned you"? I think you meant "forgiving the admin who banned you"!

@Agent - Wasn't a mistype. I really meant thanking Agreements for the inconvenience he brought not only upon himself, but his team to clean up the act of using an irrelevant evidence to ban a player for Map Hack.

Agreements totally overlooked on having a holistic view of Fangorn's clicks and behavior in this game.
If Agreements is a sound and careful admin, he should have not only circle out the click but also study on Fangorn's Game Play prior landing the ban hammer.
And because of Agreements picking a lousy replay, Fangorn is safe.

===================================================================================================================================================

A player who hacks will not only accidentally release a Fog Click (Assuming he does not have Safe Click hacks), the player will at certain stages of his game take up Defensive Stance and defy norms. This replay clearly shows no signs of Map Hack from the perspective of Play Style.

1. Fangorn never once Balled in as Storm Spirit and pick off isolated target from start to end game.

2. Did not behave weird in all situations when invis Doom and NA were stalking for a kill on him.
17:24 - Fangorn remained focused on finishing the creep wave despite Doom's arrival via Lothar's. Enemy Doom and Weaver pwned Fangorn.
19:02 - Fangorn narrowly escaped when 2 enemy heroes hunted Scourge's woods.
22:29 - Fangorn made his way to his Top Tier 1 and was intercepted by NA who was under the effects of Vendetta. Another narrow escape.
37:02 - NA was again under Vendetta. Fangorn showed no awareness of the threat and continued farming the creep wave. Escaped after assuming much damage from the aggressor.

3. He checked runes that were never there in 2 instances.
6:12 - Fangorn had observers purchased, combed Top Rune river but Invis spawned Bottom.
43:36 - This could be the most suspicious escape from 2 invis capable enemies, NA and Doom.
However, Fangorn balled out 2 times.
1st Ball - At the foot of where Doom was.
2nd Ball - To the bottom Rune spot. (Haste Rune spawned Top)

4. The Fog Click which Agreements solely used was proven to be delayed. Despite having a 3 secs timer on that click, Fangorn did lagged 3 secs in the game before the click was made on NA.
34:06 shows the 1st moment of selection by Fangorn done on Legaras the Vile.
DRM says 34:09. The difference between Fangorn and the BOT was 3 secs different.
34:09 <Fangorn> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Leragas The Vile], 0x00005B3B00005B3B
[spoiler=][/spoiler]

If there's anything wrong about this entire episode, it was Agreements who chose the wrong replay to ban.
This is the worst replay to pick for banning anyone of using Third Party Programs because it lacks even the most basic elements of MH.

Fangorn had never displayed any suspicious behavior throughout the game. And since he didn't showed signs of suspicious play, Agreements can never prove that Fangorn was hacking.

If I were Agreements (Determined to land a death blow on Fangorn), I would have picked other replays from his list of games that are to my advantage where Fangorn was behaving suspiciously and nail this 3 sec fog click with it.
Meaning picking this replay for the evident 3 sec fog click and picking another replay where Fangorn displayed his Defensive Stance.

But since Agreements did not approach in a way to what I would have done, Agreements is largely at a disadvantage with only a 3 sec fog click to rely on.
This is not very smart in handling and landing bans on players with high ELO. If he thinks that a 1 liner kind of evidence like the following can easily ban Fangorn, Agreements is far from being careful in his choice of approach. Silly is the word for it.

Agreements' choice of evidence and replay is really weak!

===================================================================================================================================================

50:58 |cFFA52A2AFangorn (Storm)|r clicked Nerubian Assassin

49:02 <Fangorn> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Nerubian Assassin], 0x0000DE16000061B7



Neither delayed or anything. @fangorn - Can you say BUSTED?

The only thing that's busted here is the quality of this ban. Agreements, can i say you are busted?

===================================================================================================================================================

[finduilas]

I played like 10 games against Fangorn. (Not just this nick of mine, but two others. cuz when I deinstalled and installed the frozen throne again, I could not log in. But if it is required I could find these games and post their numbers/ids here.) And the fact that even very good players stacked to him made me so furious several times that I blamed (and flamed ) him for not playing somewhere else where only pros play. So I really do not have a reason to stand up for him but the truth (or what I believe is true).

In several of these games when I clicked on him he had wards with him.
In that mentioned game there were none I guess. But if someone mhs once he would always mh one might think..and I dare say would not waste money on wards.

when something might seem too good, it is normal to doubt. So I think the admin is not to blame for this.. but without good evidence imo he should have waited some other admin to confirm this.

If I may suggest: chill out, guys. If there is not other proof for this then Fangorn should be unbanned and can see this accusation as a compliment