Pick furion, buy 3 tps, and some chickens until you run out of gold, tp to their base, cast all the chickens, walk to their fountain. Keep tping to their tower using the scrolls until your normal tp is back.
Most importantly, start the VK process against someone else so they can't kick you!
Good luck
Few tips for losing games
Few tips for losing games
Last edited by thorny on Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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memaru
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Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
thorny wrote:Here are the spells order I used:
1 poof
2 none
3 ulti, poof
4 net
5 poof
6 slow
7 poof
Notes: I do not get anything the second lvl, so I can have lvl 2 poof on both meepos, and destroy creeps with double poof. Max poof first, than slow for additional dmg. Usually just 1 lvl net until those are maxed, but if you like to gank, you can adjust to your liking. Sometimes I get a few points in stats before I completely max out net.
This skill build is awful. You don't need two levels of poof at level 3 since it cannot one shot a wave and you can do everything with level 1 poof that you can with level 2 poof. You also give up killing potential and gank prevention with this skill build. Points in stats is never worth delaying your level 4 net. Level 4 net is what allows you to gank and survive ganks,
thorny wrote:Early/ Mid game Items (in this order):
HP regen aura
basi ring
boots
BOT
scepter
vlads
The hp/mana aura items are great, as they help all your meepos, as well as allies (if you are laning). Also help a bit for pushing as they help creeps vs towers. Next item BOT because it helps a great deal in his maneuverability. You can TP back to base and come out very quickly, like tinker, or safer get xp from multiple lanes. Also chase down pretty much any other hero (without blink) with your fast MS and slow.
I only get vlads if they have axe on the opposite team. But its a good item to get after scepter, esp if you are still starting to play meepo.
Headdress is the biggest waste of money. If you get it on Meepo you basically delay your item progression way too hard. When meepo is low you can always send one back to fountain or stack the large camp and have the other leech lane. There's no constant need to have both in lane (it might be dangerous at times too). You would never get basi ring for the mana regen, you get it for the armor. Getting aura items in general is pretty bad and vlad is no exception. If you're benefiting from vlad's as a meepo it means that your meepos are together and if your meepos are together that means you are not playing meepo correctly and to its fullest potential.
thorny wrote:Late game:
Heart
Ethereal blade
Skadi
Blink
Sheepstick
Late game items and order depend a lot on yours, your teams, and enemies game play. You can get blink anytime after scepter if you want, its a fun item but doesn't provide any hp/dmg.
Skadi is good if you want both HP and Dmg for pushing right away. Also good if you are facing silenser, as his scepter double ulti can drain lots of mana, or vs wex voker
Ethereal is good vs bashers, caries, like mort, void, troll, etc. Especially good vs Legion
Heart is good vs caries like above, also aoe dmg like ES. Stacking hearts is very good in combination with etherial vs legion. He will be forced to duel the highest HP meepo or be etherialed. Some would argue that not all meepos get the hp+regen bonus, but you can always send the first meepo ahead and make him tank more. (eg, you are almost done destroying their rax, send the first meepo towards another tower to make him tank there, and poof the rest there once they are finished killing rax. Faster pushing that can be devastating). Even if Im stacking hearts, I will still like to get one ethereal for pushing faster.
Sheepstick... I dont really get this item but I've seen good meepos get it. I dont like that you spend so much on int that doesn't give any hp/dmg. But its up to you. Also would be a good item vs mana drainers like wex voker and silenser.
Blink is not a "fun" item, it is the most essential item for meepo. Meepos who do not get blink are basically trash and have no understanding of the hero. Blink is what enables you to gank, sneak roshan, backdoor, initiate team fights, de-ward, escape, disjoint stuns and chase. It is mandatory every single game.
Heart is a NEVER buy. It is not good against ES and it is not good when it's stacked. Skadi does everything a heart does and more.
Sheepstick is not for invoker or silencer. You never have to do anything in particular to counter a invoker or silencer. Sheepstick is for Ember Spirit (self-explanatory).
Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
The thing about meepo is that he's so retardedly broken in em that you can still destroy pubs going inefficient stuff like treads, vlads, mek, heart, etc.
Re: Few tips for losing
Pick furion, buy 3 tps, and some chickens until you run out of gold, tp to their base, cast all the chickens, walk to their fountain. Keep tping to their tower using the scrolls until your normal tp is back.
Most importantly, start the VK process against someone else so they can't kick you!
Good luck
Most importantly, start the VK process against someone else so they can't kick you!
Good luck
Last edited by thorny on Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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memaru
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Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
thorny wrote:Your meepo is certainly stronger than mine. The purpose of this thread is to give some pointers to meepo players to improve. If you have some more advice to add that will improve meepo players out there, please do.
I cannot add anything that is not rudimentary. Nobody on ENT has the map awareness or the micro to take advantage of more advanced advice.
thorny wrote:It's not easy to get a kill with lvl 1 net and lvl 1 poof alone anyway, they will run away. And it's silly to say that you don't gain anything by having lvl 2 poof, as it adds dmg and shorter CD. Just like 1 additional lvl reduces CD and improves range on the net.
I think you underestimate the power of two meepos with level 1 net and level 1 poof. Meepo has one of the fastest base movement speed (18th / 100) in game and there are not a lot of mid heroes that outrun him when he gets boots. If you add an orb of venom on top of that it's almost impossible to escape from meepo when he gets 1 net off on the enemy hero. Having level 2, level 3, level 4 poof is all good but what I am talking about is the opportunity cost of getting level 2 poof over net. You trade away all lane potential just for negligible farming ability. Good players don't lose lane, great players crush lane. You never set yourself up for the potential to be great if you get poof over net. Meepo is probably the strongest level 3-4 hero in the game, if you do not abuse this short timing window you might as well lose the game.
thorny wrote:If my net is lvl 3, I just lvled when I'm about to rosh, I will get stats. That will help me vs rosh more than maxing net, and I will lvl from rosh anyway.
The thing about meepo doing rosh is that stats will never be the deal breaker which will prevent or enable you to do roshan. Having 1 additional or 3 additional stats will not mean the difference whether or not roshan becomes feasible to solo. Your item progression and your level timing are bigger determinants.
thorny wrote:It is not always possible to stack a camp, this is only possible when mid or long lane; not possible in short side lane.
It is always possible to stack a camp. Meepos have no leash radius from each other. All meepos are independent and can be in two different locations at once. One can be in the side lane and the other can be in the jungle stacking.
thorny wrote:Also having 2 meepos together early on, you can easily kill at least 3 of the creeps very fast and push tower fast. If you have a lane partner you will get more xp with 2 as well. Against heavy harass and such, yes moving one back and forth is needed.
There's no need to have two meepos in lane unless it is for lane control. There is no way you will have lane control with two meepos in a dual lane or trilane. There's also no need to kill creeps fast and push tower fast. You're better of rescinding the wave by overdenying and getting all the last hits and denies at the safety of your tower. If you have a lane partner you split the exp with some major diminishing returns. You get 66 exp for every 100 exp when you have two meepos and a lane partner. Why not send a meepo to jungle and stack (100% exp later) or to another lane where you get 100 exp total out of 200. In all cases you level faster than having two meepos in the same lane.
thorny wrote:Item choice depends on play style. Saying that heart does the same as skadi and should never be purchased is a bit silly. Heart adds 15 more str for hp than skadi.
Meepo's item choice is pretty static. If you're not getting agh's and blink then you're pretty much garbage. This is more of an objective statement than it is a subjective statement. Other items may vary.
I never said that heart does the same thing as skadi; I said skadi does the same thing as heart. This is an important distinction since heart is inferior while skadi is superior. Let's do a rough calculation.
Heart costs 5500 gold and provides 40 strength and 300 hp + regen. So in total heart provides:
- (760x5)+300=4100 hp
- (5x1.2)+3.25% hp regen
Skadi costs 5675 gold and provides 25 strength, 25 agi, 25 int, 250 hp, 250 mana, aspd slow, mspd slow. So in total skadi provides:
- (475x5)+250=2625 hp
- (5x.75) = 3.75 hp regen
- 25x5=125 damage
- 3.5x5=17.5 armor
- 25*5=125 aspd
- (325x5)+250=1875 mana
- (5x1)=5 mana regen
Essentially you trade (assuming level 25 meepo):
(Effective HP with Heart) - (Effective HP with Skadi) = (3875.68*5)-(3754.76*5) = 604.6 hp and 175 gold for
(DPS with Skadi) - (DPS with Heart) = (116.88*5)-(78.84*5) = 190.2 dps
I hope this rough calculation shows how silly it is to get heart when you only get 120 hp more on each meepo and save 175 gold while you give up 190.2 dps which is equivalent to giving up a monkey king bar (5400 gold).
thorny wrote:And while your play style is better than mine, I would say that Dendi's is a better dota player than you. I've seen a game of his where he gets str threads + bottle + blink early on (before scepter). And late game he just stacked hearts.
I agree that Dendi is a better DotA player than me, but I can definitely hold my own against Dendi. Here are games of me playing against professional players including TI 5 Champion EG.Fear and arguably the best player in the world EG.Arteezy:
Game against EG.Fear
http://i.imgur.com/L5D0O24.png
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1330258129
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198020537393
Game against EG.Arteezy on my smurf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ne63oxRnuE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTV3JwePLg
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1325923660
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198136204205
And what professional players do in pub games is not representative of the most efficient item builds. If anything they are usually experimenting and the item builds are nowhere close to optimal. Furthermore, Dendi is not a known meepo player and I can say with confidence that I can probably meepo better than he can.
thorny wrote:Saying that threads and heart are inefficient is just a matter of opinion (speaking of which - dendi > dust), it really depends on play style and lineup.
Items like Mek, used to be core on meepo. And headdress simply makes the game easier(especially for newer and lazier players), and helps his allies early on as well. Considering how fast meepo can farm up, its not much of a setback IMO.
While Dust is an average player he does make same valid points regarding poor item choices for meepo. I agree with you that treads is not one of them. However, mek/vlad meepo is highly outdated and inefficient to the point that it doesn't matter what your play style or line up is. You can always do better by getting aghs/skadi. I can play meepo in any position and in any role, and I can say with confidence that I would never get vlads or mek. The only reason why mek was core on meepo was because there was no aghnaim's for meepo (see niuwa meepo).
I argue to the contrary, headdress makes the game harder and if you wanted a simpler build for beginner players you might as well advise them to stack 3 bracers to tank damage. Just because a hero farms fast doesn't mean you should squander their farming potential by buying useless items. Plus you have to understand the distribution of meepo's farm. Meepo's farm is not uniformly distributed and is very mid to late game heavy. Which means meepo is poorest during the early game. The price of buying a headdress is ridiculously expensive (see time value of money) considering how difficult it is for meepo to obtain last hits and find farm in the early game. Buying a headdress might mean delaying your aghs or your blink or your BoT to the point where you become irrelevant for the rest of the game and come online way too late.
thorny wrote:But yes, Meepo is extremely imba and this is why there can be some leniency in terms of items. But it is also true that "For (insert hero name here) there can be some leniency in therms of items". No hero's items are set in stone.
Being an imba hero and having the option to exercise leniency doesn't mean you should exercise it unless it is the optimal build. I can also name plenty of heroes that have no leniency in the items they get: anti-mage, huskar, templar assassin, axe, slark, troll, tinker, etc.
Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
@memaru
Very interesting comments and I enjoyed your detailed response. However, I wanted to point out a few things;
This is certainly not true. You are also apart of ENT - you have probably played thousands of games here. For the most part I will agree with you, but such a generalization was unnecessary and counter productive to your valid points.
This is true for all players in pubs, and we are just noobs having fun. Many builds will work, and perfection is really not the point. If you want some real competition as meepo, why don't you play him in dota2? or have you already tried? How did your build work there? If ENT is so easy for you then why do you waste your time?
Also, would you care to comment on this guide from n0tail; http://www.fnatic.com/content/95370
How did you get DPS from heart as meepo?
Very interesting comments and I enjoyed your detailed response. However, I wanted to point out a few things;
Nobody on ENT has the map awareness or the micro to take advantage of more advanced advice.
This is certainly not true. You are also apart of ENT - you have probably played thousands of games here. For the most part I will agree with you, but such a generalization was unnecessary and counter productive to your valid points.
And what professional players do in pub games is not representative of the most efficient item builds
This is true for all players in pubs, and we are just noobs having fun. Many builds will work, and perfection is really not the point. If you want some real competition as meepo, why don't you play him in dota2? or have you already tried? How did your build work there? If ENT is so easy for you then why do you waste your time?
Also, would you care to comment on this guide from n0tail; http://www.fnatic.com/content/95370
(DPS with Skadi) - (DPS with Heart) = (116.88*5)-(78.84*5) = 190.2 dps
How did you get DPS from heart as meepo?
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memaru
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Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
@dotaworx1
If it wasn't clear, the statement I made implied that I was excluding myself from the count of ENT players. Apart from myself I do not see any other (active) players that come close to the map awareness or even an understanding of the game sufficient to replicate my way of meepo. There are some very simple tests in which you can immediately figure out how good a player is before the game even starts and no player on ENT has ever passed this test. I make my generalization on the basis of experience with all types of players on ENT; I've played against pubstars, DIHL members and stackers. Not a single player has demonstrated an understanding of the game beyond surface level. Here are some of the most recent games of me (last month) against some of the highest elo players on ENTs as proof:
This generalization of ENT's skill level was made on evidence and it is the unfortunate truth whether or not you choose to believe it. As for why the comment was made, I said it as a veiled hint that to become a better meepo player or even a dota player as for that matter one should probably improve their map awareness and micro to be able to fully benefit from higher level techniques. I'm not sure how my comment regarding the skill level of ENT players disqualifies or takes away from the merits of any of my points.
A working build is not necessarily an optimal build. For a lot of people optimization of an item build is a goal they work towards because a large part of DotA is improving yourself and doing better. Having fun and improving are not mutually exclusive. I have played Meepo in DotA 2 and I've had reasonable success with him (5.5k mmr which is roughly 99th percentile). The reason why I was able to have this reasonable success with meepo is because I didn't build mekansm in any of my games and only built the most optimal item builds. ENT is definitely very easy for me, but I enjoy playing DotA and that to me is time well spent.
The n0tail guide is horribly outdated. It came at a time when tranquil's was ridiculously buff (you could disassemble and also it did not enter cd from damage). It is completely garbage now and you can tell even n0tail himself doesn't use that build anymore: n0tail's recent history
If you want more recent reference for how to play meepo you should check out Devilish and w33haa. You will see that none of them ever go for mekansm or heart.
The DPS from heart just takes meepo's base DPS at level 25 since heart offers no additional DPS to meepo's base DPS. 190.2 dps can be thought of as the difference in dps between a level 25 meepo with skadi versus a level 25 meepo with no items OR a level 25 meepo with heart.
If it wasn't clear, the statement I made implied that I was excluding myself from the count of ENT players. Apart from myself I do not see any other (active) players that come close to the map awareness or even an understanding of the game sufficient to replicate my way of meepo. There are some very simple tests in which you can immediately figure out how good a player is before the game even starts and no player on ENT has ever passed this test. I make my generalization on the basis of experience with all types of players on ENT; I've played against pubstars, DIHL members and stackers. Not a single player has demonstrated an understanding of the game beyond surface level. Here are some of the most recent games of me (last month) against some of the highest elo players on ENTs as proof:
Spoiler!
This generalization of ENT's skill level was made on evidence and it is the unfortunate truth whether or not you choose to believe it. As for why the comment was made, I said it as a veiled hint that to become a better meepo player or even a dota player as for that matter one should probably improve their map awareness and micro to be able to fully benefit from higher level techniques. I'm not sure how my comment regarding the skill level of ENT players disqualifies or takes away from the merits of any of my points.
A working build is not necessarily an optimal build. For a lot of people optimization of an item build is a goal they work towards because a large part of DotA is improving yourself and doing better. Having fun and improving are not mutually exclusive. I have played Meepo in DotA 2 and I've had reasonable success with him (5.5k mmr which is roughly 99th percentile). The reason why I was able to have this reasonable success with meepo is because I didn't build mekansm in any of my games and only built the most optimal item builds. ENT is definitely very easy for me, but I enjoy playing DotA and that to me is time well spent.
The n0tail guide is horribly outdated. It came at a time when tranquil's was ridiculously buff (you could disassemble and also it did not enter cd from damage). It is completely garbage now and you can tell even n0tail himself doesn't use that build anymore: n0tail's recent history
If you want more recent reference for how to play meepo you should check out Devilish and w33haa. You will see that none of them ever go for mekansm or heart.
The DPS from heart just takes meepo's base DPS at level 25 since heart offers no additional DPS to meepo's base DPS. 190.2 dps can be thought of as the difference in dps between a level 25 meepo with skadi versus a level 25 meepo with no items OR a level 25 meepo with heart.
Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
@memaru
It was definitely clear that you were excluding yourself, but I was including you
Seriously dude, you are apart of ENT and you can't deny it!
It seems you are quite the motivator. I would still like to know what higher level techniques you are referring to, if only as motivation to improve game play.
What would such a demonstration be?
I commend you for your efforts/comments and I appreciate the example you have set by challenging us noobs.
Yes, I agree it can be same thing, but at some point improving can become just another obsession.
If it wasn't clear, the statement I made implied that I was excluding myself from the count of ENT players.
It was definitely clear that you were excluding yourself, but I was including you
Seriously dude, you are apart of ENT and you can't deny it! I said it as a veiled hint that to become a better meepo player or even a dota player as for that matter one should probably improve their map awareness and micro to be able to fully benefit from higher level techniques
It seems you are quite the motivator. I would still like to know what higher level techniques you are referring to, if only as motivation to improve game play.
Not a single player has demonstrated an understanding of the game beyond surface level.
What would such a demonstration be?
Here are some of the most recent games of me (last month) against some of the highest elo players on ENTs as proof
I commend you for your efforts/comments and I appreciate the example you have set by challenging us noobs.
Having fun and improving are not mutually exclusive
Yes, I agree it can be same thing, but at some point improving can become just another obsession.
Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
Meepo (and Arc Warden for that matter) need to be heavily nerfed or removed from the game altogether for exactly the reason that the OP states. They are the least team dependent heroes and are able to win damn near every game, especially if you maphack and use macros to overcome their supposed "weaknesses" of being hard to micro-manage and keep alive.
Anyone who has been playing on ENT regularly will have noticed by now that there are several meepo abusers smurfing the crap out of everyone. Meepo has insane lane harass ability. He can push multiple lanes at once, farm multiple spawns at once. And if you maphack, you can basically just keep teleporting to empty lanes for easy gold and towers. The other team is so busy running around ganking his teammates or trying to stop him that they lose gold, exp, and siege opportunity. The disparity keeps growing until meepo is 10 levels above everyone and has aghs/skadi while your idiot team is buying stuff like daggers with what little gold they have. Even if you manage to kill him at a later point, he can usually buyback and clean up, thus starting a whole new round of lane-chasing.
His only weakness is that his early push ability is poor compared to heroes like axe, legion, and rhasta. This is the key to beating him, but your entire team basically has to understand that and they almost never do. I've been on GOOD teams where I try to coach people into skipping dagger/bmail on axe/centaur and going straight for hearts, and they usually don't listen. To rax early, you need lots of hp to absorb tower and poof damage. Dagger and bmail don't give you a single hp point. You spend your first 4.5k on dagger/bmail, you GUARANTEE that a stats-build meepo will be able to defend you early and eventually lane harass you to death.
So you must pick and build several heroes specifically for him to even stand a chance, and that is just... ridiculous. No single hero should dictate that many picks or build strategies in order to defeat him.
Anyone who has been playing on ENT regularly will have noticed by now that there are several meepo abusers smurfing the crap out of everyone. Meepo has insane lane harass ability. He can push multiple lanes at once, farm multiple spawns at once. And if you maphack, you can basically just keep teleporting to empty lanes for easy gold and towers. The other team is so busy running around ganking his teammates or trying to stop him that they lose gold, exp, and siege opportunity. The disparity keeps growing until meepo is 10 levels above everyone and has aghs/skadi while your idiot team is buying stuff like daggers with what little gold they have. Even if you manage to kill him at a later point, he can usually buyback and clean up, thus starting a whole new round of lane-chasing.
His only weakness is that his early push ability is poor compared to heroes like axe, legion, and rhasta. This is the key to beating him, but your entire team basically has to understand that and they almost never do. I've been on GOOD teams where I try to coach people into skipping dagger/bmail on axe/centaur and going straight for hearts, and they usually don't listen. To rax early, you need lots of hp to absorb tower and poof damage. Dagger and bmail don't give you a single hp point. You spend your first 4.5k on dagger/bmail, you GUARANTEE that a stats-build meepo will be able to defend you early and eventually lane harass you to death.
So you must pick and build several heroes specifically for him to even stand a chance, and that is just... ridiculous. No single hero should dictate that many picks or build strategies in order to defeat him.
Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
You can counter meepo with a good team and coordinated effort. It's not impossible and has been done many times.
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Hatedmaru
Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
This topic is about Meepo itself so we appreciate the topic/posts stays related to such. Thanks
Re: Few tips for winning games with meepo
@Hyo I was establishing the credibility of his comments in this thread. If @memaru maphacked, then I would tend to disregard what he has said since he cheated, which looks like the case from his ban request.
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