Absolutely loving the new DotA map.

[bansheex]

*People prefer shorter boring games
*People prefer -em, cuz else they either: A) Fail and feed, as i saw in that AA game (in a stacked game, expected much more from enemies); or B) Need longer to win, cuz the game is more balanced and requires you to actually do something about it, instead of betting on the -em gold/exp gain, and stomping pubs.

Your post makes no sense. "Stomping nabs" is what AP magnifies. EM gold is exactly what prevents that and allows nabs to farm out of sight or get modest free gold so that early failure doesn't snowball them into useless chunks of meat for the rest of the game while their teammates watch in horror.

You force everyone to play "AP" by removing EM as a choice for the second time in a year. You lock and bury threads that are critical and keep this shill one alive. And then you act like everyone is being a dick or just doesn't understand how much better it is.

[aRt)Y]

In the past 10 years or so, ap has always been the "balanced" version whereas -em enabled stompers. Not sure why you think it is the other way around.

The reason we merge threads or trash them should be obvious: one central topic is enough. We dont need them spread across the forum. And as the decisions (both the change and revert) have been sufficiently elaborated, there's no such thing as a "critical" topic at this point.

[Astros]

Players have been worse under this new map. I think the amount of games hosted has also gone down. Quality of games are just down IMO due to the fact that the majority of players just can't adapt to the new gameplay. I don't even know why every map has to be a replica of the updates on DotA 2. This isn't DotA 2. If players really wanted to insert themselves into that, they should just fork over some money and go play DotA 2. Btw, bloodseeker is completely bugged in this new version.

[sealman]

I disagree with those who say dracol1ch's map is better balanced. Balanced between heros? Maybe. But the balance between good and bad players has gotten worse. I realize skill should mean something, but the slower free gold tends to hurt noobs more than pros. It favors heroes that can easily last hit and farm in lane. Support, especially melee support, now has a very hard time of getting early items.

beyond that, the new items seem pretty bogus. Especially the Silver Edge and the double hyperstone items. These weren't needed at all. The precedent of the double hyperstone item is not good. Consuming items for permanent bonuses effectively adds extra item slots.

Also, the camera controls were a very bad idea. it favors pros over noobs, especially the way the controls are hidden away in the circle of power.

There might be better balance between heroes (MAYBE, hard to judge), but the map makes the distance between pros and noobs even bigger. Maybe this map would be good for tournaments and competitive play. For casual public games, I don't think it's the right map.

------------------
not to be impatient, but are we actually going to revert to the old map? It's been a week, I wonder if the admins actually intend to revert?

I played a handful of games on the dracolich map. Overall, they were one sided noob-stomping disasters. Not fun. I've since switched over to BK, despite it having poor moderation.

[Astros]

I disagree with those who say dracol1ch's map is better balanced. Balanced between heros? Maybe. But the balance between good and bad players has gotten worse. I realize skill should mean something, but the slower free gold tends to hurt noobs more than pros. It favors heroes that can easily last hit and farm in lane. Support, especially melee support, now has a very hard time of getting early items.

beyond that, the new items seem pretty bogus. Especially the Silver Edge and the double hyperstone items. These weren't needed at all. The precedent of the double hyperstone item is not good. Consuming items for permanent bonuses effectively adds extra item slots.

Also, the camera controls were a very bad idea. it favors pros over noobs, especially the way the controls are hidden away in the circle of power.

There might be better balance between heroes (MAYBE, hard to judge), but the map makes the distance between pros and noobs even bigger. Maybe this map would be good for tournaments and competitive play. For casual public games, I don't think it's the right map.

------------------
not to be impatient, but are we actually going to revert to the old map? It's been a week, I wonder if the admins actually intend to revert?

I played a handful of games on the dracolich map. Overall, they were one sided noob-stomping disasters. Not fun. I've since switched over to BK, despite it having poor moderation.

Yup. The game is indeed more balanced if players are overall, better. The overwhelming majority of ENT players aren't very good to begin with. This version only widens the gap between the pros and noobs. Pros know how to adjust while the noobs aren't as inclined to do so. Maybe it changes the longer this version is out but I'm seeing a decline in games being hosted and the quality overall. I do agree with some items in that AP is supposed to be a lengthier game but the fact is, the game ends way before you even need to upgrade to a silver edge or double hyperstone. The best part of this version integrated from DotA 2 is the courier/warding implementation. Everything else is just extra that doesn't complement this particular game at all.

[Sylvanas]

I never understood why EM was ever called "easy" mode. Dota is pvp, it's exactly as easy or hard as the other team is. EM just makes things faster, not easier. Faster gold just means you get to threaten barracks and throne sooner, I personally don't really care one way or another.

[Burnt]

@DracoL1ch I would expect 90% of these qq gone if "em" can be added to 6.85L... lol

[sealman]

im also a bit surprised no one else seems to be concerned about the camera control options in dracol1ch's map. You can adjust the camera at the circle of power.

This has a huge affect on long distance heroes: Bara, Pudge, Sniper, Lightning Spirit, Ancient Aparation, pretty much any blink hero. Because these options are kind of hidden within the circle of power, noobs will be ignorant that they can adjust the camera to avoid ganks. Pros will zoom out, possibly use a larger monitor too.

Here are some screen shots.

standard camera height.jpg (1.76 MiB) Viewed 1361 times

maximum zoom out.jpg (1.78 MiB) Viewed 1361 times

[paradise-uswest]

The only bug I have experienced with this map is Lycan's wolves, for some reason they just don't work for me

[balancesheet]

Look, perhaps the admins can compile data to see if the games are longer or not, on average?

[Sylvanas]

im also a bit surprised no one else seems to be concerned about the camera control options in dracol1ch's map. You can adjust the camera at the circle of power.

This has a huge affect on long distance heroes: Bara, Pudge, Sniper, Lightning Spirit, Ancient Aparation, pretty much any blink hero. Because these options are kind of hidden within the circle of power, noobs will be ignorant that they can adjust the camera to avoid ganks. Pros will zoom out, possibly use a larger monitor too.

Here are some screen shots.
standard camera height.jpg

maximum zoom out.jpg

I wasn't aware .85 had zoom options. That's great.

The only bug I have experienced with this map is Lycan's wolves, for some reason they just don't work for me

idk about that, but it can't be worse than lycan's ult always glitching and becoming greyed out and unusable for the rest of the game in the official .83 map. But nobody mentions this, because .83 is the ultimate perfection and can never be changed in any way.

[aRt)Y]

Map has been reverted for now. As the discussion continues, I am confident we will find a compromise to update to the new map in the future.

[DracoL1ch]

Reasons for liking/disliking the map is kind of moot. It's a game, you either like it or you don't.

If it's possible to host both maps for a short period of time, people "vote" by which version of the game they join. This eliminates any possible reasons people could give as to which is "better" (very subjective) and we'll just see version people like more.

The game version that gets the most people playing wins. Simple, right?

people also stupid enough to make wrong choices anytime. especially in case of crowds.
some generals are smart enough to handle their soldiers, and other charge way too much freedom to them, losing any ability to be the best at the battlefield

[DracoL1ch]

@DracoL1ch I would expect 90% of these qq gone if "em" can be added to 6.85L... lol

then there would be no good players. why would you ever want to improve if the game throws bags of gold to your face "buy whatever you need", gives you tons of exp for killing any creep like mom preparing you to school? C'mon, there are no room for most INT heroes, and even non-scalable STR heroes are also out of game meta. EM killing dota, causing it to lock down with like 30% of heropool.

good players do not want to fight against bulked for no reason late heroes, being unable to do anything. No matter how hard you punish your enemy, he will catch up really fast, literally in a few minutes of farming. and if you prefer to play skilful heroes like Puck/Chen/Magnus, you're pretty much done against any right click hero with braindead owner. So good players have 2 options - get onto better scaling version (dota2/dota allstars) or leave compltely. Sad to see admins cannot stand newbies' crying and stepped back, that may heavlity outcast this place in terms of good players.

I disagree with those who say dracol1ch's map is better balanced. Balanced between heros? Maybe. But the balance between good and bad players has gotten worse. I realize skill should mean something, but the slower free gold tends to hurt noobs more than pros. It favors heroes that can easily last hit and farm in lane. Support, especially melee support, now has a very hard time of getting early items.

beyond that, the new items seem pretty bogus. Especially the Silver Edge and the double hyperstone items. These weren't needed at all. The precedent of the double hyperstone item is not good. Consuming items for permanent bonuses effectively adds extra item slots.

Also, the camera controls were a very bad idea. it favors pros over noobs, especially the way the controls are hidden away in the circle of power.

There might be better balance between heroes (MAYBE, hard to judge), but the map makes the distance between pros and noobs even bigger. Maybe this map would be good for tournaments and competitive play. For casual public games, I don't think it's the right map.

------------------
not to be impatient, but are we actually going to revert to the old map? It's been a week, I wonder if the admins actually intend to revert?

I played a handful of games on the dracolich map. Overall, they were one sided noob-stomping disasters. Not fun. I've since switched over to BK, despite it having poor moderation.

oh wait, so you're saying pro can pwn noobs? no way! it should be forbidden! oh wait, there are no way to know who is noob and who isn't, here are no stats.. oh wait, here it is! so, failing to balance teams, huh? how is it map's fault?

[Burnt]

@DracoL1ch Understood. However it's not map maker's job to improve people's dota skills (by forcing them to play a harder mode or any other means); it's the players themselves' job.
I've seen people who played thousands of games with 3/3/3 average k/d/a - should we kick him out of the community? No.

I strongly believe the last thing a map maker should do is taking away options from players. Let "em" be there, if people realize and want to get better they will play the harder mode even "cm". But different areas on the earth have different preferences and as a map maker you should embrace them instead of restricting them.