Skill Level of players Decreased?

[Burnt]

presumably this?

viewforum.php?f=181

[cashmeoutside-]

wow burnt, y u advertising DIHL when u dont even play.

every1 get ur ass back to (or into) dihl plz ty.

[ProjectPat]

You shouldn't have to inhouse for a decent game with decent players. But maybe thats what its come to..smh

[divinerape]

The skill level is the worst I've ever seen. Used to have usually 1 bad player in my team, wasn't too hard to carry. Now it's 2-3-4....

Worst part is ENT won't make a 1200+ bot where people can actually play a good game

If only they had a league with above average players

"League" play died with the original IHL. But I highly doubt anyone here knows what I'm talking about.

[divinerape]

A spectre that goes dagon mom is just ridiculous in my opinion. I get a vangaurd on spec as well as blade mail which one first depends on the opponents you face, followed by 1 of 3 sny, diffusal, desolater straight into radiance or bfly, unless hp is a prob or armor vs a sf/vs going with assult ir shiva. Heart is only a necessity when playing vs hard tanks and your forced to take major abuse. This is what i mean in regards to Skill. A good player understands he/she needs to build their hero a specific way vs specific heros not only so but vs the Skill level of who they face. Times have changed and you can lead a team to victory with "ridiculous" builds that yesterday would be obliterated and damn near force you to play ai because of the losses endured unless you actually put forth effort to completely understand every aspect of the game. And any day 1 person could change the entire game by one click at the right time right place as a skilled player

Almost equally as bad as dagon/mom.

The ABSOLUTE best spectre always ALWAYS gets radi first. No exceptions. After that, 90% skadi or 10% bkb then skadi. Followed by either buriza (mkb if vs evasion carry) or abyssal or heart. Turn strength treads into boots of travel. Butterfly possibly, AC is nice too. The only way I lose as spec is if my team absolutely blows.

[nitromon]

A spectre that goes dagon mom is just ridiculous in my opinion. I get a vangaurd on spec as well as blade mail which one first depends on the opponents you face, followed by 1 of 3 sny, diffusal, desolater straight into radiance or bfly, unless hp is a prob or armor vs a sf/vs going with assult ir shiva. Heart is only a necessity when playing vs hard tanks and your forced to take major abuse. This is what i mean in regards to Skill.

The VG build is a very common spec build that goes way back. But when you think about it, VG is only good for early tanking. If your game demands a spectre tank, that would be the way to go follow by a BM. However, even so, this at most makes him a minor tank around 20 min area (assuming a good farm to get VG + BM and tread, RoA). He still cannot offer much offense. Also in this build, you would go dispersion skill first, instead of dagger or the desolator ability. Otherwise, even with VG and BM, he won't be much of a tank. This still makes him quite useless for 20 mins and then only as a tank for another 10 mins or so, pushing effectiveness to 30+ mins.

More and more games are demanding an offensive spectre, which is why we're seeing more and more radiance spectres. A dagon spectre can get a dagon by level 7, which is under 10 mins. The point is, after getting his level 6 ult, he is essentially still not very effective offensively. With a dagon, it matches his level 6 ability, tps in finish off a hero and runs off. After getting the dagon, I farm heroes and easily finish off my tread, RoA, and then any mid level items such as mjollnir or diffusal. Think it this way. Even at level 6, if you have a VG by then, you're not really a threat to the enemy. No one is going to run from you and any heavy DPS will just take you out. But if you have a 400 laser blast? Any int hero and agil hero will think twice before engaging you b/c you have to do very little damage and then BAM whack them.

When going dagon, you want to go dagger ability first. That gives another 200 damage nuke. Combine with your dagon, you can do a 600 damage just with 2 nukes. A typical lina or a sniper (int/agil) would not even have 1000 hp at level 6/7. I also do not get the desolate ability, so you have at least a level 2 dispersion. With tread + RoA and sometimes poor man's shield, he is not a tank but a pretty sturdy agil with dispersion. This combination makes his ult worth it at level 6/7 instead of waiting for 30 mins. I just recently played a game where the opponents picked massive early game heroes b/c we had a slark. They were trying to push for 25 min win by rushing all our towers with an axe as tank. For any typical spectre defending this, he will never be effective until the game is over. An early dagon repelled their attacks and pushed the game into mid game by strategically targetting their main disablers etc.. Taking out one of their main heroes support heroes, then letting the strong carries of my team finish off the rest. By that point they already lost their window of opportunity and by early late game, 2 of their players afk griefed b/c they knew it was over.

Going mom would require a switch of ability to focus on desolate and dispersion instead of dagger. I rarely if ever go this build but I have seen people do it successfully. The reason I do not like this build is because mom has a negative 30% damage amplifier on the hero using it and also desolate is only useful during certain battles and times.

At first it was kinda like a joke, going dagon with Spectre. But more and more I realize dagon is a core item for Spectre. Rush it first, brings his effectiveness from 30 mins down to under 10 mins. He can be a lethal killer at level 6/7 and able to farm heroes for items he need to stay lethal mid and late game, making him one of the few heroes that is effective all 3 segments of the game - early, mid, and late. So far I haven't seen anyone copying this build, except a couple of times. The problem is some people copy this build, but they don't know the fundamentals behind it. This is why also some dagon SBs work extremely well while others feed. I guess in those cases, skill is reflected in understanding the fundamentals of the roles their heroes play with the dagon. Never level the dagon to level 5 unless you really are just overwhelmingly kicking your opponent's ass.

There was one game I remember and I might be able to find the replay. The game was actually lost in early game. The opposing team were just trashing our team and our teammates were just feeding. So in that game, I decided to hell with it, I'll just level up the dagon. We had an SB in the game and their main player was an SF. So each time SB charges him, I ult in and dagon. Too bad the SB didn't go dagon either, but the combined SB and dagon Spectre was too much for the SF. He actually farmed well, but by the time he did so, we were so strong, we don't even need the dagon. We actually won that game in the end.

---

Ah here it is: http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 851234.w3g
It is a pretty nooby game, but nooby on both ends, 12.44 elo game. Their SF is a smurf I think, new account and played well (I guess I smurfed the smurf! ). At 9 mins, we were 0-9 and the feeding kept going on our team, then teal AFK and kicked. But later their pink lagged out, so it stayed 4v4. I ended up with 10-1-4 despite my whole team feeding. Had I gone with a traditional spec build, game would've been over probably around the 25-30 min mark before I get strong. It is not a typical spectre game b/c I level the dagon to 5. But I like this one b/c it turned the tide of the game and also it is a good example of what teamwork can do and how an assassin spec is suppose to play. Ult, kill, TP and run away. I wouldn't credit myself for the win, as always it is about team effort and I utilized my teammates, picked strategic kills, and worn out the opponent to FF. SB was a big contributor despite his feeding score, he needed a quick assassin to help him finish his charges, dagon spec was perfect for this game.

[fgfe]

Pretty funny that people write walls of text questioning if dagon spectre is actually legit..

[nitromon]

Pretty funny that people write walls of text questioning if dagon spectre is actually legit..

It's a discussion. That's what a forum is for. Join in!

[fgfe]

Pretty funny that people write walls of text questioning if dagon spectre is actually legit..

It's a discussion. That's what a forum is for. Join in!

My bad, you are right.
Spec is one of the hardest carries so buying an item that might get you some early kills for almost 3k gold but doesnt let you scale, give you farmspeed or makes you tankier is never worth it (even tho im sure its fun/can work in easymode).
The most common spec buid is getting some utility items like phase urn wand aquila into radiance (farmbuild) or manta/diffu (fightbuild).

[Dhamma]

If only they had a league with above average players

If only. The skills bracket of current one is so low. They literally accept anyone just to fill the game.

every1 get ur ass back to (or into) dihl plz ty.

He's not joking, he means everyone. They will even accept players like Shoc

[ProjectPat]

Trying to convince anyone of a dagon on spec is absurd. Its just not a good item on that hero unless your being carried and just cant get kills, even then... Im a firm believer in the vg on that hero also really needs a yasha regardless of if your going manta or sny. A early hard to kill spec creates a hard fast finish, which in turn is giving your spec the time to slaughter. Yes rad is a must, however its a question for the player as to when. A good friend of mine used to play spec and wreck stacked teams with a simple blademail sny des. He used to go by proxy or buddha, he moved on to dota many years ago. Arguably one of the best oblivion and sf players that played public when he was active

[nitromon]

Trying to convince anyone of a dagon on spec is absurd. Its just not a good item on that hero unless your being carried and just cant get kills, even then... Im a firm believer in the vg on that hero also really needs a yasha regardless of if your going manta or sny. A early hard to kill spec creates a hard fast finish, which in turn is giving your spec the time to slaughter. Yes rad is a must, however its a question for the player as to when. A good friend of mine used to play spec and wreck stacked teams with a simple blademail sny des. He used to go by proxy or buddha, he moved on to dota many years ago. Arguably one of the best oblivion and sf players that played public when he was active

Well everyone has their prefer build and whatever works for them. Personally, VG and SNY are 2 items that I almost never buy for any hero b/c they're level 2 items that are ineffective mid to late game for most heroes. If it is just for movement, lategame BoT is almost for everyone so you don't actually need SNY. And for slow, skadi is always better. Having both of them is just redundant when you only have 6 slots to fill.

I think I mentioned before in another discussion that items can either "enhance" your hero's strength or it "supplement" your hero's weakness. Dagon gives a manapool for agil/tank with small manapools at a very affordable price 2700. VG is often an item I use for weak support heroes instead of tank heroes. For Phoenix and Batrider (maybe WD, in one of his builds), VG is core build for me and one that I often see opponents surprised how tanky I am early when I play those 2 heroes.

Many people dismiss dagon b/c they believe the gold going to that dagon is wasted when you can save it for a level 4 items. Hey, any hero would be pretty badass with skadi, butterfly, satanic, etc... but you have to actually get to that point of the game. So back to the core topic of this thread, which is "fundamentals." One of the fundamentals of DOTA is buying the correct item for the correct stage of the game - early, mid, and late.

[Burnt]

wow burnt, y u advertising DIHL when u dont even play.

every1 get ur ass back to (or into) dihl plz ty.

your comments remain invalid until you thank my post

[BiLyA]

Yes nitromon very right in items.
I make thread too for right items in heros.
Me an my comrade invent new bone clinga build who need phase for run fast, vangard for no die, then need necrobook for gang, halberd for disarm enemy carry bkb for gay stuns + battarflie for atak fastar.
Also we make new wyvern item. Need rush armlet for use after ice heal for max hp wen enemy focus, helm of dominater for heal more on atak, linken for use in team carry to suport an then need crystals for more damage late game cuz team ks u. If game last more u need buy basher.
Here replay for see how stronk these builds are, easy 20 elo https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10059238

[kunkka]

Yes nitromon very right in items.
I make thread too for right items in heros.
Me an my comrade invent new bone clinga build who need phase for run fast, vangard for no die, then need necrobook for gang, halberd for disarm enemy carry bkb for gay stuns + battarflie for atak fastar.
Also we make new wyvern item. Need rush armlet for use after ice heal for max hp wen enemy focus, helm of dominater for heal more on atak, linken for use in team carry to suport an then need crystals for more damage late game cuz team ks u. If game last more u need buy basher.
Here replay for see how stronk these builds are, easy 20 elo https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10059238

thanks comrad. This seems more pro than nitromon since nitromon only won 12 elo. less than 15 means stacked.

i also want to share this replay where i finished with 14/2/13 with 19 elo as Templar Assassin (TA): https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10073384

New best build on TA (She's a pro hero that not many know how to play so I'd like to give some advice here):

Since you have refraction and meld, you need to build around those 2 skills but also depends on enemy heroes: first you get helm cuz refraction gives more damage and you steal more life; then you get veil for armor and mana pool cuz enemy has bara and syllabear who deal a lot of physical damage and your skill cost much mana; third item will be mkb for ministun on timbersaw when he casts timberchain, it stops him in the middle so he can't run; lastly you get ethereal blade for nuking low health heroes before he runs away (kind of same idea as dagon on spectre), also it does more damage cuz TA is agi hero with good agi growth.

hope you enjoy it and own ent with new meta!