Masterkiller vs. EdgeOfChaos RESULTS

[Edgeofchaos]

So, you've shown you can annoy enemies. Congratulations. I also *sigh* when I see a techie picked, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to take my free win.

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=11718303 1-8 slark, congrats, you failed the 2nd easiest hero in the game. 36 mins with one recipe item besides boots. No slark counters. Doom cast ult on you like once.

Please tell me for real: do you think you're good? Are you seriously that delusional? If you enjoy messing around and losing it ain't even my problem, idc, but if you truly think you're good, then I am concerned. Like wow don't you realize that the dota community dislikes you even more than masterpain, like that's almost impressive.

[UltraKill]

kid stfu already, no one even takes serious what you say. You went husk vs 600 elo xD

[Edgeofchaos]

Your point? Then I let you go husk, and won the matchup you lost.

Husk isn't even in the top 10 overpowered heroes, and is easily countered.

[UltraKill]

i don't like to repeat myself twice

[nitromon]

Nah, you guys are too tough on him. My problem with him in the past is doing trollish things like pulling creeps from lane or tp to enemy fountain to steal items. But his dagon + refresher combo is quite impressive. Very creative.

But you guys gotta have more fun! Someone goes dagon Furion? I counter with dagon Spectre. Furion trying to dagon snipe my teammates? Nah-uh! Not on my watch! I ult and snipe Furion back.

The irony is delicious.

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=11718361

Hi @yakoom !!

----

btw, the game before this one on the same account is even more hilarious!

Enemy thought they had an easy game picking techies, slark, BH, SB, and naix. Completely underestimate the power of global armor of Treant, taking kills from them by saving his teammates. One save, on the Sniper, was literally like 2-5 HP.

Thanks to Edge's advice, now I armor after Slark's DP. Haha wonderful!

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=11718298

[Edgeofchaos]

Dagon spec is almost as poor a choice as Dagon furi. Why do people think they did well just because they got a lot of kills :\

Armor after pact is proper. That slark was also an absolute trashcan and had Dominator and Blademail. The single most important thing you can do as Tree, though, is to go Aghs and then place Eyes on the whole map. It's like wards that 95% of people don't know how to deward.

[nitromon]

Dagon spec is almost as poor a choice as Dagon furi. Why do people think they did well just because they got a lot of kills :\

I actually don't get a lot of kills with the dagon, but it is funny as hell. People get zapped at 12 mins and wonder "wut? wut just happend!?" It's a stepping stone I use when I need an early contribution with Spec when some ally decided to go Skeleton King or Naix after I pick spec and farm for 40 mins.

The single most important thing you can do as Tree, though, is to go Aghs and then place Eyes on the whole map. It's like wards that 95% of people don't know how to deward.

My personal favorite. I'm getting faster at getting it now too. Use to take me 25 mins, I'm a pretty terrible farmer, but lately I was able to get it by 15-20 minutes. I'm also placing them more strategically now, sometimes getting a quelling blade so I can go deeper into forests to place them. Sometimes if you place it on a tall tree, it masks the eye so they can't even see it.

[Edgeofchaos]

16 minute Radiance hits stronger than 12 minute Dagon and 20 minute Radiance.

12 minute dagon is also late as hell in an apem game. If you can't get it by 10 minutes at the very latest, then don't build it. 6 minutes would be preferable, 8 minutes is still ok.

[Sylvanas]

wards that 95% of people don't know how to deward.

[citation needed]

I actually don't get a lot of kills with the dagon, but it is funny as hell. People get zapped at 12 mins and wonder "wut? wut just happend!?" It's a stepping stone I use when I need an early contribution with Spec when some ally decided to go Skeleton King or Naix after I pick spec and farm for 40 mins.

Those selfish assholes pick naix or sk like the monsters they are, but thankfully you, the champion of the people, displaying utmost abnegation and charity, are willing to go dagon for the greater good. This is what true heroism is like. You and furion kd are the last precious remnants of the dagon chivalry of old.

[Edgeofchaos]

Lololol

And try tree in a pub, you won't see quelling blades or tangos to cut the trees. Almost ever. I try to teach people about this but not many listen.

[Sylvanas]

Lololol

And try tree in a pub, you won't see quelling blades or tangos to cut the trees. Almost ever. I try to teach people about this but not many listen.

I agree there's a lot of people that don't know it, but it's still a huge exaggeration. It reminds me of some b.net people's estimates of mh prevalence. You listen to them, and they literally believe everyone except them is using one.

imo, it's more like a 3 ways split between those who don't know and don't care to find out, those who know but are too lazy or cheap to do anything, and those who know and who react.

[Edgeofchaos]

I have never seen a single person besides myself remove the eyes in the forest. That isn't exaggeration.

It's not that they don't know. Last time I played a tree (which is not often) I was practically begging them to get quelling after I 6-slotted before any of thme.

[nitromon]

12 minute dagon is also late as hell in an apem game. If you can't get it by 10 minutes at the very latest, then don't build it. 6 minutes would be preferable, 8 minutes is still ok.

6 minutes?! you mean solo? I never solo. Yeah, I tend to avoid situation with you know... some players fighting over solo, runes, etc... I practically never get runes anymore. But yeah, I'm a terrible farmer, so I'm happy with a 12 min dagon. Then it is BAM! pew pew!

But I don't actually play that much spec, people just think that b/c I talk about it. I'm support player, anything from phoenix, to wyvern, to oracle, oh... trying to learn chen.

[Edgeofchaos]

Assuming a rushed dagon. Which costs 2700.
You start with 600, which can be put towards the null talisman. Assuming you spend some on regen, let's say you need 2300 in 6 minutes to complete Dagon.
That's 383 gold per minute. You gain ~240 per minute passively in EM. Meaning you need to lasthit about 4 creeps per minute to afford Dagon by 6 minutes. Which is not hard at all even on dual lane.

If you're a terrible farmer then you need to work on it since it's the single most important thing you can do to improve your dota game. My laning isn't perfect but I have been working to improve it. If you play against a competent laner like zam or saint, you'll see them taking almost every creep and denying whenever possible. It's no coincidence that they're the ones who reach the top 10. Like this is probably one of the top 3 skills that separates noobs from pros. When you see someone autoattacking on lane, they have a 200% chance of being a noob.

Another general dota tip: kills are overrated. If you can either go csing, or go for a risky kill: always prefer to cs.

There's a DotA 2 AI that recently beat a professional team in a 5v5 bo3 match. One of the things I found most interesting about this is that they gave kills a negative priority (though gold+xp were still a positive priority) to force the AI to prioritize creeping over kills. If this is good enough for the AI that beat pros, then it's good enough for random ent pubs. Saying it again: kills are way overrated

Anyways dagon spectre is clearly a joke tactic. Spec is not a proper user of dagon and you'll only beat the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel trash-cans with this. The following heroes can use dagon:
- Necrolyte (early-game power allows for Reaper kills)
- Tinker (refreshing it can be a powerful sustained attack)
- Arc warden (this is one of many playstyles, though maybe not the most optimal; you get double dagon)
- Some int heroes can carry it as their 6th slot, when you make it Dagon 5 lategame.
On nearly any other hero, there are better items you can get. Especially as your first item. For carry heroes like spectre, dagon is one of the worst possibilities you can get.

The hero who is the absolute worst dagon user is oracle. Oracle dagon loses almost every game, even though they get lots of kills.

[nitromon]

I guess despite playing Spec, I'm still mentally a support player. If I'm laning with a mid/late carry as a support player, I tend to let them get the farm. After a while, you just kinda lost the rhythm for farming. I typically focus on denying or harassing in lane. Most of my farm comes after heroes start to break lanes and you get to clear lanes yourself or neutraling. Man, I've even seen players fight over this issue. Some players were yelling and angry b/c a support player was farming in lane with him and he's all "I'm the carry! You are stealing my farm rawr!!"

The hero who is the absolute worst dagon user is oracle. Oracle dagon loses almost every game, even though they get lots of kills.

Funny thing is, I never get dagon on INT heroes. lol... That's why I thought it was most ironic in some of the discussion people keep saying dagon is a support INT hero item. I always believe dagon is for agil or str who needs early mana pool and could use a 400 early blast. When I play INT, I'm usually worried about being too squishy.