Revamping the DIHL

[Zeratul]

Pretty much agree with this last post (and he marks most of the reasons that I, and im sure others, don't join DIHL).

The only one which i dont agree is regarding captains: You can't have only 3/4 captains or else games will soon become the "same boring game" (If you get what i mean) - People should try to captain, once in a while - If they will fail? Some will, others not, but the same way players should listen to their captain, captains should listen to their team advice as well (Captains have the final word, sure, but hearing advices is a + for everyone).

[aRt)Y]

9) There should be a clan so everyone can keep track of all the DIHL players. It's much easier to relocate into a channel and have a list of active players at the moment than it is for someone to continuously scout AREM games and whisper them. It's ineffective and kinda annoying.

Among other things, that's what Discord is for.

[KingKar]

I believe the DIHL will once again be a failure by reading some of the comments on this thread.
I really do hope the leaders in BBA and DIHL are smarter than this to make the right decisions.

It just seems that many of you have no clue how to sustain this League.
You keep repeating the same mistakes that the old dihl made.
Its kind of disturbing, reading this thread.

arty if you really think gproxy is requirement, care to tell us all how the old DIHL got destroyed?
And why it was so terrible in bringing in new players and active games/day?

[Astros]

9) There should be a clan so everyone can keep track of all the DIHL players. It's much easier to relocate into a channel and have a list of active players at the moment than it is for someone to continuously scout AREM games and whisper them. It's ineffective and kinda annoying.

Among other things, that's what Discord is for.

In an ideal world, Discord would be preferable. But honestly, it's a lot more work in terms of who actually gets on compared to who you know are on.

[Brando]

I believe the DIHL will once again be a failure by reading some of the comments on this thread.
I really do hope the leaders in BBA and DIHL are smarter than this to make the right decisions.

It just seems that many of you have no clue how to sustain this League.
You keep repeating the same mistakes that the old dihl made.
Its kind of disturbing, reading this thread.

arty if you really think gproxy is requirement, care to tell us all how the old DIHL got destroyed?
And why it was so terrible in bringing in new players and active games/day?

Well clearly you wouldn't know the exact reason why the old DIHL died out because (you weren't good enough to play) BUT when you are playing a nearly dead 15 year old game it gets boring after a while and you move on (since video games isn't life?) Most people either quit or went to DoTA 2 (more than 75% probably) So bringing up how "The old dihl didn't work because of X" in any manner is false and ignorant because people simply just quit the game. It's not like EVERY player who played in those games STOPPED to play ENT pubs, nearly nobody is on wc3 anymore (further proving your argument to be incredibly invalid). I suspect you should not speak on something you weren't apart of (especially because of the skill ranges).

[MuMiX]

Made updates to try and incorporate all the diff comments:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13CT ... sp=sharing

ELO is not a requirement, it is just a way of streamlining the vouching process (need less people to vouch for the player).

Also ELO is not a guarantee entry to the league. There are plenty of high ELO players who come to DIHL and are either not good enough or simply don't play their role (for example, refusing to play the support role with a support hero). So that's why I like the combination of the two things.

WolfPackMama: in regards to how strict we should be for letting people play, the current problem is I will often sit and wait for literally 2 hours for a game to fill. And this is from 7-9 CST which you would think is primetime. Or late at night when most people go to sleep they try to get 1 last game to fill. I think in these cases (the 1st game of the night and the last game of the night) we should be allowed to ask random pubs that have decent stats to come help us start the game. They could still later be officially vouched/denied, but if we don't do this, then the game doesnt fill quick enough and DIHL players will leave and go play pub games. This is a neverending cycle and we end up not filling the DIHL game for a long time.

So I think in order to get up and running we may have to cut a little slack on some of the vouching rules / vouching process just to get the player pool big enough to get games more consistently running. Note I'm going to have a really hard time getting even the existing seasoned players to do all the things we are asking, more so with the new players. Point being, I whole-heartedly agree with you but I think we should wait a tad longer before we get too strict.

chineseeagle (i'll respond to your comments by keeping the same numbers): 1) In regards to dealing with toxic players, with new mods and a structure in place, I think we will get better at dealing with those situations.

2) everyone's going to have different reasons to want to play, but for me I just wanted people to be good, play their role, and not leave the game. Perhaps someone can think of a good way to get people interested in the games.

3) Good idea, I'll have to consider adding a simple guidelines type section to help new players adjust to DIHL gameplay

4) I added a note that you are given 5 min to show up when you are called (when new game lobby is available). I think we are also working on doing any !roll type stuff in the wc3 channel instead of in the game lobby which could already be full. Or is there some way we could have a !reserve command we could use... so that we close all slots in the game lobby and then do !reserve commands to get people in ? I saw people do this in iCCup games.

5) no comment

6) The issue is that not everyone likes to captain, and even the most common captains sometimes don't want to capt. This is because being a captain can be very stressful and tiring. So, we usually ask the typical captains if they want to capt (Smoker/me/cash/slark/etc) but are open to other captains. A new captain may not make the best picks but hey we all learn somehow. And we need to start the game somehow and if no one want to captain....

7) sure we can all dream of a perfect world with many superb support players that love the role, but that just isn't how it works out. Thing is people get tired of playing the same heroes/roles every game, so it is actually up to the captains to be nice and switch it up occasionally. Let a guy do something else for a game, even if it isn't the highest chance of winning the game. All of us seasoned captains have done this, just to help keep people happy and coming back. We do what we can to encourage proper play and I say that if a player is toooo far outside their role that they should actually be removed from the league. For example, a support player that refuses to let the carry farm in the lane really should be removed from the league. Do we need a list of these things or just use some judgement ?

8) I literally have seen multiple people not be able to figure out how to install Gproxy on their own, despite its extreme simplicity. There are some people who never have hiccups in their internet and have absolutely refused to install Gproxy (I don't understand why but OK). I think the rule of if you disconnect in a game, then you then must install Gproxy for the next game, is reasonable.

9) What's really annoying is having a 25 limit for friends in wc3! We need a way to be able to message everyone on a giant list within wc3, so that we can quickly and easily find all the players currently in pubs. Is there a way to do this?

10) Humans are humans. We call people out on their shit and sometimes we aren't nice about it. I'm not saying it's OK but hey it's going to happen in a video game. We try to keep things respectful as much as we can but those things are inevitable when emotions run hot during a close match. So we need to say hey guys I dont appreciate the way you are talking to me, and the other guy needs to say oh sorry i was just upset. Let's be humans and talk to each other.

And I do agree as a dying game there is a HUGE incentive to play due to familiarity with players. I've grown to love many of the current players and it is certainly more fun playing with people you know then you don't know. So I can see where that causes some of us to try to get all our friends in the game instead of getting new players in... but hey, why not make some new friends!

[raizoir]

Mumix/Cash and I will be posting rules etc in the next few days and we welcome to hear your feedback in a few weeks time when everyone has had a chance to play.

@cashmeoutside- @mumix

[Dhamma]

9) What's really annoying is having a 25 limit for friends in wc3! We need a way to be able to message everyone on a giant list within wc3, so that we can quickly and easily find all the players currently in pubs. Is there a way to do this?

You could probably use a bot. I think you already have one in the channel.

Nabo used one to do a whole lot more complicated things than just keeping a list of ppl, or just msging them. So I don't see any reason it couldn't be done.

[aRt)Y]

9) What's really annoying is having a 25 limit for friends in wc3! We need a way to be able to message everyone on a giant list within wc3, so that we can quickly and easily find all the players currently in pubs. Is there a way to do this?

You could probably use a bot. I think you already have one in the channel.

Nabo used one to do a whole lot more complicated things than just keeping a list of ppl, or just msging them. So I don't see any reason it couldn't be done.

Because ENT no longer uses/relies on channel bots due to their technical limitations and/or longevity thanks to Blizzard's strategy.

Again, in Discord you can have as many players in one list as you want and they are easily tag-able and/or can opt-out if they dont want to be bothered. Plus, it's more transparent (list) and easier to administrate (permission-wise).

[Dhamma]

I'm not talking about the bot in ent, talking about the one in clan bba channel

But yea, if the intention is for everyone to have and keep discord active, that would be easier

[aRt)Y]

I'm not talking about the bot in ent, talking about the one in clan bba channel

But yea, if the intention is for everyone to have and keep discord active, that would be easier

ENT does not endorse anything related to third party clans when it comes to leagues. Therefore, DIHL should not use anything administered by bba for transparency sake.

[Brandon]

@art)y But Clan High used to administer the previous DIHL and now people have moved to BBA. Not sure why you have always against BBA
but this clan is promoting new members and growing the league.

[HazarDous]

@art)y But Clan High used to administer the previous DIHL and now people have moved to BBA. Not sure why you have always against BBA
but this clan is promoting new members and growing the league.

Like you said, used to. That is no longer the case for many reasons which I won't bother to elaborate on. Fact is, DIHL is a community/clan by itself. There is absolutely no purpose whatsoever to having Clan BBA (or any other one) as an intermediary between DIHL and the games.

Besides, it isn't "clan bba [who] is promoting new members and growing the league". It is within DIHL members' incentives to promote the league. Again, you're using BBA as an intermediary when there's absolutely no need for it.

[Astros]

@art)y But Clan High used to administer the previous DIHL and now people have moved to BBA. Not sure why you have always against BBA
but this clan is promoting new members and growing the league.

Like you said, used to. That is no longer the case for many reasons which I won't bother to elaborate on. Fact is, DIHL is a community/clan by itself. There is absolutely no purpose whatsoever to having Clan BBA (or any other one) as an intermediary between DIHL and the games.

Besides, it isn't "clan bba [who] is promoting new members and growing the league". It is within DIHL members' incentives to promote the league. Again, you're using BBA as an intermediary when there's absolutely no need for it.

Poor argument. Everyone knows BBA is the hub for these games. ENT isn't the one promoting these games. They are simply the platform being used to host and record the games as it is more efficient seeing as you guys have the system in-tact. There is absolutely a reason to use BBA as the hub. Not everyone even has an ENTgaming account or bothers checking it. The natural instinct of a DIHL player is not to browse through ENTgaming to find a game but to get on Clan BBA and see if there is a game going on. I agree with you on the fact that BBA isn't actually required if we are being technical but the fact is, it works fine the way it is now and I can't see how it would be an issue going forth. If you guys don't wish to associate yourself with a clan, that's fine. But the majority of DIHL players are around BBA and thus, I believe they should have an opinion on how it should work as well.

[Brando]

Poor argument. Everyone knows BBA is the hub for these games.

Completely unrelated to my argument. Because many players who play DIHL are from clan BBA doesn't mean that it has any purpose, or rather that it should have going forward when it comes to the in-house league.

[ENT is] simply the platform being used to host and record the games as it is more efficient seeing as you guys have the system in-tact.

That is exactly my point.. There are only three requirements to having an in-house league. a) First and foremost, a community, b) a technical infrastructure (hosting services, discord bot, discord, ELO recording, etc.) and c) a (good) organizational structure. You seem to misunderstand the concept of "community" as well as you underestimate b) and c). A community is merely a group of people who share a common interest. You could identify yourselves as "pro players", or "BBA", or "DIHL players", I don't care. The point is that if you read the beginning of this thread, you'll realize BBA is no reliable in providing either b) or c), and that is why we do not want it to have anything to do with the league. As we've heard/witnessed recently, it is prone to abuses and lack of transparency.

There is absolutely a reason to use BBA as the hub.

As you said;

I agree with you on the fact that BBA isn't actually required if we are being technical

it works fine the way it is now and I can't see how it would be an issue going forth.

No, it doesn't "work fine" the way it is. Using BBA as a third party _will_ lead to abuses, lack of transparency, lack of integrity, and so on, and finally, it will lack the notoriety and appeal for the league to grow.

Not everyone even has an ENTgaming account or bothers checking it. The natural instinct of a DIHL player is not to browse through ENTgaming to find a game but to get on Clan BBA and see if there is a game going on.

That's just wrong. It is the instinct to more than a thousand players to browse ENTgaming and check its games on a regular basis. A pub does not simply join clan BBA to see if there is a game going on. Clan BBA members join clan BBA channel to see if there is a game going on. You are not going to grow and maintain a league alive with the latter; refer to my prior statement about notoriety.

If you guys don't wish to associate yourself with a clan, that's fine. But the majority of DIHL players are around BBA and thus, I believe they should have an opinion on how it should work as well.

Meh. They are around BBA because that's all they know for now, and the concept of Discord is still rather new. I have said already that going forward, BBA and/or any other channel are bound to become trivial. We have numbers to back that up from LIHL transition. From channel as a rallying point to Discord, games number per week has gone up 400%. Discord is just easier, allows for more technical implementations, is more accessible than WarcraftIII (phone, tablet, computer background, etc.), overall a more jovial experience, can tag players on their phone when there is a need for 1 more player rather than sticking to whoever is online on your WCIII friendlist... I could go on and on but you get the point.

Last but not least, it is the players' league, not ENT's, not BBA's. Every single member of DIHL should have an opinion and should be given a place to be heard and respected. That's exactly what ENT provides with its organizational structure (forum, discord channels, moderators, organization, cooperation, oversight, transparency, and on and on..).