pulling mid

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Jubadus
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pulling mid

Postby Jubadus » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:48 pm

Build Provisions
1. All players must build on their own lane and can not build a tower that will attack a creep from the opposite lane.
2. Building any towers in the dark green area is prohibited.

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=4948908

guennter starts off building turrets too close to mid then builds zeus behind it and claims "it just happens" when he pulls. srsly when you build zeus behind the green line in mid... How many games have you played and you still claim that it just happens? pulling from other lanes is becoming more of an issue again. A lot of people do it and either the rule should be enforced or removed. k rant over.
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Krumme
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Re: pulling mid

Postby Krumme » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:05 pm

I agree that a reminder would not be too bad here - I saw Patarinsky clearly breaking the rules yesterday as he was building delays but as it didn't have any impact I chose just to tell him that the mods probably wouldn't take it just so lightly

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Hutzu
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Re: pulling mid

Postby Hutzu » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:09 pm

On round 11, the clockwrecks are pulled because a friendly unit (the ones from Guennter's lane) are attacked nearby. But, the Zeus would have pulled, if Guennter's lane would have been cleared.

On round 12, the Zeus attack the leaking mermaids, while their own lane is still not done. I will discuss with diablo_ if and how a possible rule-adjustment might look like. I have one idea, but it might be considered too strict.

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Re: pulling mid

Postby Jubadus » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:25 pm

did you not see lvl 8 also?

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Hutzu
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Re: pulling mid

Postby Hutzu » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:53 pm

He barely pulled there, as far as I remember. He was about to leak anyway and just got killed 1-2 secs faster. So I left it out.

Just as a general idea to prevent such cases, it is hard to find a solution that is neither too strict or too loose.

@Guennter Of course building Zeus (or any other ranged unit with a high range) that close to the dark green area is not wanted (and you were building behind the border-line. Just barely, but yeah). Yes, we do see other people do it as well. Yes, you got 'unlucky' that god.lik3 went suicide income and thus leaking to you too fast. Otherwise you would have cleared your lane and nothing would have happened.

Personally I'd rather try saying "Use your own common sense" then try to enforce a rule like this:
First tower has to be in this range (see picture)

That is somewhat how I try to build, if I don't get archers. With archers it is slight different, as you build them on the wall above/below each other and not like this:
....../ (<-tower)
...../
..../
.../
and so on. So the first archer will be your lowest (highest) placed tower. I don't like such a rule, and I'm sure you guys wouldn't either. Such rules about placement would take away a good portion of the fun.

So @ everyone: Place your first tower with good care and don't put us into a position where we would have to do something like that. But if you disregard it in a way it could be considered intentional or just too frequent, then we will have to react. Not necessarily with the idea of my perfectly drawn prototyp (*cough* I know my paint-skills suck), but yeah, you should get what I mean.
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Diablo_
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Re: pulling mid

Postby Diablo_ » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:15 pm

I agree that too many people start building too far behind. If you start building melees or pyro or such close to dark green area it's simply abusive and should be banned (if you then build ranged towers which are outside of your lane). Yes we have barely done this yet as simply too many people do it (and sometimes waves are also pulled when no one would expect it, especially lvl 11). But if this keeps getting worse then we will have to enforce this rule more strictly and maybe make up new rules like your last tower must be minimum 2 tower fields away from the dark green area or such. No one would want such a rule but if you leave us no choice then we will have to change something.
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Re: pulling mid

Postby SLSGuennter » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:14 pm

@hutzu im sorry for this. i started turret if i remeber it right, and build them in back, cause its my ranged and i want to build melee in front if ... later i rr zeus and druid and im supposed to hold 10, so i had to build them behind cause they outrange turret. im sry for this, but didnt thought it will cause so much anger since it happens so often anyway (on a lot of players)

@jubadus dunno why u hate me so much and report me again for IN MY OPPINION not needed stuff, but ok :D (the other was so "as-abuse" when i try to as yolo.styles builder on kingrace after arena ^^)
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Re: pulling mid

Postby godlik3 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:56 pm

hmmm...thats difuclt man....
i give you guys fair examples....
we build archers almost on dark green because it holds better warriors, bolgs and bo on 2 and 3
we build pyro as far as we can cuz the focus against bolg and 2 is really better...
if u build hades to much on front lod will die against warriors or dino on 2 before infernal dies...
u need to build mortars almost on dark green because of formation 2 2 2 2 1
so i think we need to understand if some times we pull another lane....ofc on this cases we dont do this on pourpouse!
=)

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ZTX)Fiji
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Re: pulling mid

Postby ZTX)Fiji » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:04 pm

There's no need to build absurdly close to the mid with all of these towers just mentioned - ur formations is the key - if u honestly believe that the farthest away from spawn position = better holding, then I suggest that you change your positioning)/ formations.... It would suck If ignorance caused tighter rules for those who are aware of how formations determine ur ability to hold ;)
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Re: pulling mid

Postby Krayyzie » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:23 pm

If im not wrong, the rules say u get banned if u pull, and if u build far back, you risk getting urself banned if someone reports it? No need to change rules, if people dont want to follow rules, give them ban( or warning if its obvious accidental and ban if it happens a second time), wont take long before u see people build far from mid...

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Re: pulling mid

Postby dweiler » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:12 pm

A bit in line with what Bravey is saying: the rule is that you only kill units from your own lane, and if people build in a way that pulls that is at their own risk. That second rule is in my opinion totally superfluous, because it does not add anything to the first rule and also makes some other things, like making proper delays, impossible for no reason.

My two cents are this: Remove the second rule that is mentioned by OP, and the first rule should be judged by discretion of the moderators, i.e. the moderators judge whether it was intentional, too much risk, or just (bad) luck and determine if and what the penalty should be. No need for any changes to the rules.
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Re: pulling mid

Postby tastay » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:22 am

Surprisingly I agree with god.lik3 on this issue

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SLSGuennter
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Re: pulling mid

Postby SLSGuennter » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:09 am

look at this build of beep. he got inf in first roll and places it lvl 2, and already on a position, a zeus is going to pull if yolo.style leaks. then he keeps building even behind and 17 he places mermaid on middle between his and yolo.styles lane. so he did pro-build cause yolo.style didnt leak on his build and im noob cause godlike did leak? :D i rly dont think so.

@jubadus just look at this and think again before u insult me in gamechat ... or u think beep is a player with no experience and no clue of the game?

p.s.: i even think the little pull in 10 made them not losing a heal in this wave (since bosses dont come on same time, but more spread), though i cant prove this :)
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Diablo_
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Re: pulling mid

Postby Diablo_ » Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:21 pm

Watched the games now.
@guennter @beepboopbeep don't build so far back again, see this as a warning.

godlik3 wrote:hmmm...thats difuclt man....
i give you guys fair examples....
we build archers almost on dark green because it holds better warriors, bolgs and bo on 2 and 3
we build pyro as far as we can cuz the focus against bolg and 2 is really better...
if u build hades to much on front lod will die against warriors or dino on 2 before infernal dies...
u need to build mortars almost on dark green because of formation 2 2 2 2 1
so i think we need to understand if some times we pull another lane....ofc on this cases we dont do this on pourpouse!
=)

Whether this is true or not doesn't matter, don't leave your lane and don't pull or don't be surprised to get banned otherwise.
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