Clog

[nabo.]

-Semi good bad ideas are not satisfying + I cannot continue seeing players crying 24/7.
-Black and white rules preventing clog all together is stupid since clearly clog is part of the game now.
-There is a conflict between "optimal" strat vs "stalling" game too long. Some players seem to push when they should be semi holding with the excuse "I need to recover" or "it is more optimal", but fact is with certain decent towers you should be holding more.
-Clogging is a resultant of your building ways, but there are certain scenarios which I think all of you would agree should be bannable.
-General clog definition: When a team leaks too much at similar interval, creeps and sends get clogged up at dark green area, animation clusters, and units move slower than their normal pace being hindered while running to king (approximately 60% leak without send).

I have watched enough replays and talked to enough lihl players to brainstorm:

1) lvl 5-6 clogging to send mass wyvern lvl 7:
Done by undervaluing and selling value to leak. Could naturally leak lvl 5, but all if not all towers should hold most lvl 6, so there should be no way to clog this lvl.
Solution: This wont happen unless players undervalue on purpose and refuse to build to clog. Those who do will be penalized for underbuilding and using a bannable strategy delaying the game needlessly.

2) lvl 7 clogging:
This usually cannot be avoidable since a lot of towers tend to leak lvl 7 with sends. + king usually can withstand lvl 7 clog if maxed + w/e skill he has.
Solution: Accept that there will be clogging at lvl 7 since it is unavoidable due to how players build to optimize income and lumber.

3) lvl 8-9 clogging to send mass wyvern lvl 10:
lvl 8 clog is the problem since players max hp and regen and 1-3 hit lvl 8 creeps STALLING too long.
lvl 9 ....honestly all towers can hold lvl 9 with ok value. So, I should not be seeing clogs at this level.
I get that there are towers that leak 8 and your team may leak, but should not be leaking over 50-60 at lvl 8. + If you dont suicide push at 8...should be fine holding lvl 9 with w/e tower.
Solution:
lvl 8: if a team leaks 50+ = Those who chose to push instead of value will receive penalty.
lvl 9: if a team leaks 30+ = Those who chose to push instead of value will receive penalty.

4) lvl 12-16 clogging:
Not sure whether I should care about these levels.

5) lvl 17 clogging by building delays:
Players build "null" values simply to delay leaking instead of building more attack towers or mass tanking towers.
Soltuion:
Building "null" values or delays will be penalized. (split towers will not be considered as a null value and therefore are an exception).

Any other? Let me know now.

Note, this topic is only for discussion for reference for myself and others. I will edit the topic as I hear ppl's opinion.

Offtopic:
My best bet would be on a new map: http://legiontd.in-goo.com/t451p210-leg ... dback#4236

[eldryan]

lvl 9: if a player leaks more than 7 leaks (considering 45 creeps per person)= penalty.

so all aquas will be banned. cool. hated that tower before it was even used.

[nabo.]

lvl 9: if a player leaks more than 7 leaks (considering 45 creeps per person)= penalty.

so all aquas will be banned. cool. hated that tower before it was even used.

So, with aquas, you shouldnt b leaking more than 20. So, assuming others hold with other towers, total leaks shouldnt exceed 30?

[V1rus]

with over 1k val aqua holds reasonable 9. 1.1 holds full often.

however with all these clog cases. I think it would be nice if only 1 (or max 2) mods take care of the clog cases. just that they are treated similarly... because there can't be a black/white rule I agree.

greetings
v1rus

[matdas]

Yes, there can be a black and white rule, but that would destroy lihl. Which is why it is difficult to get a rule. We are trying to accommodate everyone in the league.

[Diablo_]

Instead, with this rule, it will be very hard to be punished, but if you are, it will be more than enough evidence to make it fair for all.

That might be true, but with that rule it is also very easy to abuse clog without being punished. Nothing would stop people from having 400 value each on level 5 and 500 each on level 6 while being 7/3 at 5 with maxed hp and reg and 0 attack etc.
And also nothing would stop people from selling half their towers for a level 17 race to leak 100 units and clog like mad.

[Diablo_]

But the point is, these guidelines do not eliminate "true clog abuses" or how else would you call my examples?

[pewpew lasergun]

i know you have put alot of work into it,
but this is fail,
many players violate your current new rules and mods do not enforce them.
not to mention there is different rules about the clog on just about every post.

i think restore diablo_ as a mod should he accept.
Making rules about LTD requires an actual mod that plays the game extensively.

@nabo.
have you considered the mode -hpmmcb for 4s only as you said previously ?

[nabo.]

I can review all cases and call the shots and say this case should be bannable and this case should not be bannable with reasons.

But, previously this approach had too many complaints which is why we have been trying to come up with rules.

I only see the rules listed on wiki. All other clogs mentioned on other topics are just discussions.

diablo quit on his own. He couldnt come up with a rule. He wanted no rule for clog and just allow everyone to clog and deal with the game. But you guys voted for some rules to be created. So, you can ask him on bnet.

If the community wants hpmmcb? ok. Why dont you create a topic?

[pewpew lasergun]

to be fair to diablo_ the questionnaire choices were all for change of rules like !ff, there is no option for selecting no change if i remember.

anyway that is done, there is alot of new vouches who dont even know what -hpmmcb is.

I guess we'll wait what u mods come up with first before polling again for this mode.

maybe a good idea is to implement an immediate trial for -hpmmcb in 4s only for a week.


i pulled this from archive, its a -hpmmcb game, i didnt rewatch replay but pic shows 184g income with only mortar for me, yet all players below 7/5, which means no abusive jacks like 7/6 7/8, and no one very low value. what is not to like in this mode ?

https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... de#p184926

there is link to replay there

WC3ScrnShot_011515_191327_03.jpg (361.58 KiB) Viewed 896 times

[supersexyy]

No one likes clogging but everyone wants to jack up to 7/10 for some reason. UCW coming to ent.

[Diablo_]

diablo quit on his own. He couldnt come up with a rule. He wanted no rule for clog and just allow everyone to clog and deal with the game. But you guys voted for some rules to be created. So, you can ask him on bnet.

I/We (Krumme, me and I think Hutzu) did come up with the previous no clog rule. I was all in for either keeping that one or removing it all together, personally I was fine with both options, but not with any other "concrete" rule anyone suggested so far because they are simply all flawed and will punish many "legit" cases while they will not punish many abuses.
And as pew already said, there never was any chance to keep the old rule in your polls ...

[Krayyzie]

pew, the problem is that the league got quite a few clog abusers, who are just screaming to much as fast as hpmmcb comes up to discussion, and just like hpgmcb, there are also bad games in hpmmcb, and once those bad games happen(either extremely unlucky rolls, or players actually Fail and when they fail they loose the game) those players are screaming out that hpmmcb is the worst thing in the world and more players get affected by this talk, and after 1 week of -hpmmcb as standard mode, about 55-60% of the league is against hpmmcb.

Seems like thats the way its been every time hpmmcb been tested. The only problem with hpmmcb, which in real is a positive thing, is that if you FAIL you become Weak. And alot of players in this league does Not understand the basics of building, and plays 80-90% of their lihl games with full yolo and in many cases clog, and with king kills gold and huge income, after 10 they are strong anyways, even tho they played poorly.

Nabo : Big part of the community voted for hpmmcb in earlier threads, both for fun weeks and when the suggestion came up, but it will Never get over 50% of the votes as there are to few players in this league who can actually play the mode.

[nabo.]

I personally dont like the lvl 8 9 clogging and I certainly think that players in this league yolo too hard instead of semi holding.
There are towers that can hold decent while pushing, but people seem to prefer push and push and push w/e tower they have.
hpmmcb doesnt seem to be preferred by majority of the league's players.
I hope that you guys try not to suicide and hard yolo from now on or we find a better map.
As i said, this topic was merely for discussion, but doesnt seem like I can get more.

Archived.