Allowing observers

[dweiler]

Don't be so defensive; let the poll and the players speak for themselves.

Agreed. But I think you (and some others) are misunderstanding me. For me it is normal to have a discussion on arguments that does not end with me saying my thing and the other saying his thing. I work as a PHd candidate for philosophy on a university, having discussions based on arguments is what I do all day. If people perceive this as that I am with my back at the wall and panicking, that is a wrong perception. I enjoy having a discussion about it, no matter the numbers. If observers stay I have no problem with it at all. I have not and will not take anything personal, unless people are going to call me paranoid and full of myself. Then I'm pretty quickly done with it.

[Nore]

I am pretty sure BA was not directly pointing at you, but rather showing that "ghosting" in his opinion is a non-issue, and the ones who have come here and expressed such paranoia over it are probably overreacting. He could have chosen better words, sure, but don't take it personally. Very different from these guys coming here and slandering my name for really no reason at all. I am trying to tell others not to make things so personal; his statement was pretty broad, and not targeting anyone in particular, from how I read it.

MH has been a problem, but there was proof to back that it was happening, and has been handled case-by-case. This is totally different, when you are trying to eliminate an important aspect of LIHL that many enjoy out of worrying for something that is literally not even provable. I deal with reason and logic when making decisions; cause-and-effect. But how can we realistically effect so many without a real "cause" there?

Should we just assume that ghosting is a problem, and start looking for culprits? That is almost like banning all people with darker skin from entering a facility because "a few" might want to steal something there.. does it make sense to do that? I think not. Just look at the whole picture here, and not just your side of it.. take it all into account, and see how much difficulty this is. There is no way I can support such a change without at least approximately 70% of the league wanting it. If that were the case, then imo it is no problem at all to remove obs, but then and only then will it be legitimate.

[dweiler]

There is no way I can support such a change without at least approximately 70% of the league wanting it. If that were the case, then imo it is no problem at all to remove obs, but then and only then will it be legitimate.

I agree that the time of discussing has passed and the opinions have gotten harder, so I would say it is better to conclude. I don't think the numbers will change a whole lot anymore. I am not sure about the 70%, but I do agree the numbers at the moment are too small to warrant getting rid of observers. However, with 60% wanting observers, and 40% being concerned for the open possibility to ghost I do feel it is something that is a real problem. We should seriously look into it and see if there is any way in which we can reduce the chance of ghosting.

Tom_hardy's suggestion to change from referee to observer (that means that any communication with other players in-game during observing is cancelled) could be a way to reduce the 'biggest' chance of ghosting, which is accidental ghosting. People can still see the game then, join every aspect of it, just not accidentally ghost for the players in the game (unless they really want harm and use 3rd party programs - and I see a lot of people do not think others do that).

[MarshMallows]

Tom suggestion seems pretty fair, who was slandering you Nore? I wasn't slandering you if that is what you are referring to? I was pointing out you might be biased towards keeping obs spots, because you like to observe so much. Is saying a crack addict might be biased towards keeping a crack dealer in their neighborhood slandering them? Nope, just pointing out a fact.

The problem is as long as there are observer spots there is just no way at all to know if people are abusing it, so you can say people who don't want them are over reacting and paranoid, but you don't know if it is happening or not, so what gives you the right?

How many people actually voted on the poll, were some of them inactive, like super sexy? how many people are vouched? Most people don't come here... The poll is pretty much completely useless tbh.

The bottom line is that there is only one benefit to keeping obs spots and that is to make it a bit easier to do SS tests, of which I have done 1 since joining LIHL.

[BA_Fail]

You guys are paranoid, and so full of yourselves. Do you guys really think people are ghosting specifically to beat you?

I'm sorry BA, but if you go in with stretched leg, I can reply to you, wtf is this nonsense? We have had plenty of people maphacking in LIHL to beat us, why couldn't they ghost? I don't know where you get your all-knowing wisdom from that ghosting doesn't happen. This is just an argument based on ridiculing others, doesn't suit you well.

Can I also point out the irony of Nore saying we should not make things personal and the next post in which someone makes it extremely personal, saying people who try to make post based on arguments and not ridiculing someone who doesn't agree with them, are paranoid and full of themselves, he thanks for the post?

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

So I can't prove that people don't ghost, just like you can't prove people do. I'm sure it's happened a few times because of the amount of games played and how easy it can be, saying something as simple as I cant believe he overbuilt I would consider a form of ghosting. But to have the mindset people observe just to ghost I find very ridiculous, and we already have the option to kick observers, I'm finding this thread as pointless, and just making people more paranoid and causing drama.

[dweiler]

Looking at the numbers and the opinions here, we as moderators feel there should not be a change to observing at the moment. The suggestion of Tom to change from referee to observer is a new suggestion and we will open a new poll for that. With that this discussion is concluded. Processing.