Can we ban delays already?

[nabo.]

...then it's basically the same as splitting your units as it delays just as much if not more. How will you cope with a team that builds only units that slow.

Plz explain what you mean by this.

Are you saying that massing tots together is a type of delaying that should be bannable?

The delaying I know is when players build dead values which do not aggro your "main" towers.

The only purpose of splitting should be to leak to double demon or send more. If you guys think splitting should be allowed, we could say that splitting can only happen before send level or something.

[HealByColor]

The aura doesn't stack so I am not sure how this would help a lot.

I really don't understand why we should allow splitting if we don't allow delay towers.

[usedtobeAnAdventurer]

How about this: "You are not allowed to build/have delays/split(on purpose)[thus towers separated from other towers] on the level you are making a send". Something like that. Should solve the delay problem

[ArMeDaNdDeAdLy]

Delays are party of the game.I dont like the expensive ones in order to clog but if we ban them, then we just let the rolls decide every game.In this map luck has a big part of it.With banning delays you are only asking to make it bigger.

[Krayyzie]

Since armed was really really quick to archive diablos thread about pulls, and obviously was in a hurry to get rid of it to save someone who were reported again.
And since i dont wanna create another thread as that could be considered spamming(pretty much anyting against the mods are), Could armed(good move again by the way...) please give some examples of reported pulls that were not punished before this season started?

As rules say: All players must build on their own lane and cannot build a tower that will attack a creep from the opposite lane (pulling).
You are only allowed to build 1 tower space into the dark green area , no further, without being able to pull opposition towers.

Simple, You can NOT build a unit that will attack a creep from opposite lane, that is pretty much black and white and has been since the rule was created, every REPORTED case of pulls has been punished in the past, and obviously the current mods rather let the league go backwards and allow pulling again... Atleast make an announement if you want to change the rules and f-ck up the league again by allowing more and more abuse again...

and yes, as you notice the mood of this post is pretty bitter... but since the new mod team arrived this is going in the wrong direction...

[Diablo_]

And what do you base your assumpion that most players want to allow pulling again on?
This rule is running since a long time and barely anyone complained, so why would you change it (well actually you didn't even change it, you just don't want it to be followed)?
You know, there was a time where such things were decided by a community poll, and not by a few weeks old mod.

Also, "to better fit the current meta" ... current meta = lamest pub style ever? Clogging allowed again, pulling allowed again ... what's next? Allowing antistuck and king juggling?

[Krayyzie]

You mean you are changing the rules based on the 10% of the league who actually likes you and u chat alot with? The same people you like to clog with? Ah, and yes, the same people that used to have 70% of the bans in this league BECAUSE they couldnt follow the rules, right...make all the rule changes to benefit those people. Why not make your poll BEFORE u make rule changes? Try to make a poll and see how big part of the who believes allowing pull is a good or bad change BEFORE you change the rules based on the great list of abusefriends of yours?
Arty and Nabo might be trying to make this league get better, but the fact that the lihl mods are not is just making it worse, espically by changing rules the way u like it to be, and in most cases most likely against the how the community would vote. I BET you do not have the community behind you in any of those changes:

1: Making clog fully allowed again
2: Allowing pulls again
3: Allowing people to leave games just before king dies, both to get spots in next game and to fuck up stats

Pretty sure there are more...

[aRt)Y]

Eh, please stay focused on the subject and don't go off-topic. We do encourage anyone to chat with us. Whether you like us or not should not hinder you from bringing up arguments for a certain idea you've.

That said, you could perhaps motivate other players to post as well and not just the usual 10 :P

[Krayyzie]

Okay, so the fact that 2 of the last pulls were fully accepted(reports denied), while they clearly go against the rules?
You are NOT allowed to build a unit that will attack creeps from another lane, its simple, if you dont enforce this, you HAVE changed the rules

Clogging was the main problem when you guys took over as mods, and by easing the rules of what clog is, you guys made it fully allowed again, its simple to see, there has not been one single punished player for clog so far this season, and yet what used to be clog and punishable, happens pretty much every game.
so, yes, what the community used to call clog, has been fully allowed and are abused in Most of games now

3rd one you didnt even answer, why in hell would you change a rule to accept a player to leave before game ends when it can screw stats, and also give them the possibilities to sign for next game before all the players who actually plays the whole game? This has been and would still be against the rules if you would do the poll you asked about you would most likely get the answer that people dont want their stats screwed up...

*Guess you removed or someone else removed ur next "we do like we want, no matter what community wants post"

[aRt)Y]

@hutzu @nabo. Your input regarding how the cases were dealt?

@Krayyzie That quote is a lie. Be careful with claiming such things.

[Hutzu]

@art)y
zealot pulled 2-3 satyrs, dying before they were even able to attack his towers. So he gained no gold and delayed the arrival of 2-3 satyrs by about 2 seconds. Yeah, technically it was pulling, but I would have kept it as a warning. PMing the player, telling him this would have consequences if it happens again.

god.lik3 did pull, although his first tower was built quite well. To hold lvl 10, he builds some more small ones, going diagonally down. That's all cool, though going into the danger-zone. He is unlucky, as achillesgr (his lane-ally so-to-say) leaks big. So big that they clog in dark-green area. Meaning, they get closer to god.lik3's half/side of the dark-green area. At that time, some archers attack sideways as the zombies advanced too far. And that triggered the pull. Kinda unlucky. Still, since he went into the danger-zone (though not touching dark-green yet) I would have prolly given the smallest amount of penalty-points. If he had kept his towers off the zone for that one level, no other lvl could have triggered this, as god.lik3 would have had enough archers to prevent his towers to attack sideways.

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When @Krumme and @Diablo_ and I put that rule up, we also wanted to prevent people from building too far behind and "accidently" pulling from above the dark-green area. Some towers just have insane attack-ranges and can pull without being on dark-green area. god.lik3's archers for example or zealot's zeus.
The problem is that the original intention and interpretation of the pull-rule was not given to the new mods, because the change happened too fast. Krumme stopped, I became really busy IRL, Diablo_ stopped and all that within a very short time, so the new mods hadn't seen our internal discussion nor did they have the chance to benefit from the experience of senior mods and how they handle things.
The current interpretation of the pull-rule is clearly against what we wanted.

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Let's say I got a lane-ally, who plays the 350 value meat wagon strategy and I got archer or zeus. With the current interpretation, I can mass my towers close to the dark-green and get his leaks for 100% of the gold. That's just silly. Yes, it is taking things to an extreme point, but that often helps to get a point across.
We were lenient, when you get 1st roll of towers, build them as-we-would-have-called properly and after a reroll you get a tower, which has a higher range and of course should be built behind your current ones. But by doing so, you would risk violating the pull-rule. We went easy on those cases, also because such a reroll usually happens later during the game, when pulling is actually never happening.

[Hutzu]

I would personally not ban delays or splitting, because it is not abusing game-mechanics as clog nor it is against LIHL's principle of solo-building. In the end you could say that you are also at fault for not doing the same, if you know the game is ending at that level. Personally I don't do that delaying stuff without being asked/pressured into doing so, but I see no abuse in it.
If we ban splitting, then we will have a lot of lvl 32 games coming up, because people will send 12 for income and get high value, if the risk of getting DDed on 17 or 20 is out of question.

[aRt)Y]

@Hutzu Thanks. Perhaps you can phrase a few sentences so we can add it to the handbook? Setting the standards for interpretation is important (something we see happening to blues, too).

Would enforcing the "old" definition solve the current issue though or is the subject a new suggestion?

[Hutzu]

@Hutzu Thanks. Perhaps you can phrase a few sentences so we can add it to the handbook? Setting the standards for interpretation is important (something we see happening to blues, too).

Would enforcing the "old" definition solve the current issue though or is the subject a new suggestion?

The original subject of this topic is different than the other subject, which arose in here (the pulling).
My response to the original subject is in my previous post (the 2nd of my double-post. Double-posted on purpose to seperate the two different matters which I addressed). I see no reason to do anything about it, as I stated.

About the pulling-issue:
By going back on our interpretation, we also infringe the players (though just slidely) on their building-behaviours / building-freedoms. There will be complaints, as they are now, but we had already dealt with them and it had calmed down (people came to terms with it). What I mean is there wont be a solution without complaints from any side. We (Krumme, Diablo_ and I) just considered that most fair and in the interest of a solo-building league to do it as we did and (if memory serves) the majority of the players was for it as well.

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Sure, I will rephrase it today or tomorrow, depending on how fast I get other things done, which I gotta do today.

[nabo.]

Okay, so the fact that 2 of the last pulls were fully accepted(reports denied), while they clearly go against the rules?
You are NOT allowed to build a unit that will attack creeps from another lane, its simple, if you dont enforce this, you HAVE changed the rules

Pulling is pulling and this is against the pure solo building concept. Yes, there are times people pull unintentionally +(intentionally) with long range towers such as zeus, bambi, archers, etc. They are expected to build up ahead to not risk pulling. It really is about where you build and whether your other lane partner leaks and how fast you clear your wave and when he leaks...

-1st case: zeus which was not built at dark green pulled and the 2-3 creeps tat got pulled for like 2-3 seconds and were not killed = no impact, no intentional pull. No other instances of pulling happened in other levels. Id say, move on.
-2nd case: godlike's initial building position of archers was fine imo. He did pull at lvl 9. I think the pulling was unintentional and both sides leaked anyway so no time was stalled, but he did gain some gold out of it. Although it was obvious that achilles woulda leak, it looks more of an unlucky case for godlike. I would go with a warning or a point for pulling.

Currently we only have "dark green building" and "dark green pulling". We probably should rephrase "dark green pulling" as "pulling" instead.

Clogging was the main problem when you guys took over as mods, and by easing the rules of what clog is, you guys made it fully allowed again, its simple to see, there has not been one single punished player for clog so far this season, and yet what used to be clog and punishable, happens pretty much every game.
so, yes, what the community used to call clog, has been fully allowed and are abused in Most of games now

I tried implementing a strict rule and a semi lenient rule. The community rejected both. Fact is, all know clogging is bad and an exploitation. Yet, all embrace it as some shit part of this game due to lihl style of yolo building or so called "optimal" building which I question highly. I have seen many players push when they could semi hold their waves. No matter what tower people have, it seem going high income while leaking is their main objective. Truth is, majority seem to want to clog and the map is outdated, so I will not comment about this further. As I said, improving brouder's map is the best option. Please actively support him and his map. It has the potential to fix a lot of current ltd problems. Autohost suggestion topic: https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=60109

3rd one you didnt even answer, why in hell would you change a rule to accept a player to leave before game ends when it can screw stats, and also give them the possibilities to sign for next game before all the players who actually plays the whole game? This has been and would still be against the rules if you would do the poll you asked about you would most likely get the answer that people dont want their stats screwed up...

*Guess you removed or someone else removed ur next "we do like we want, no matter what community wants post"

No idea what this one is about.

Let's say I got a lane-ally, who plays the 350 value meat wagon strategy and I got archer or zeus. With the current interpretation, I can mass my towers close to the dark-green and get his leaks for 100% of the gold. That's just silly. Yes, it is taking things to an extreme point, but that often helps to get a point across.
We were lenient, when you get 1st roll of towers, build them as-we-would-have-called properly and after a reroll you get a tower, which has a higher range and of course should be built behind your current ones. But by doing so, you would risk violating the pull-rule. We went easy on those cases, also because such a reroll usually happens later during the game, when pulling is actually never happening.

That is an extreme case. You mean wagons will get 350 value by lvl 3 and keep leakin his leaks to his lane partner who has long range towers? So kinda of a cross concept with pulling? zzzzzzzzzzzzz Id penalize this for underbuilding or refusing to build. Anyway, this is by no means solo building. Clear cut case imo. Not a good case comparison.

Not even sure why someone started to talk about pulling when this topic is about delays. Next time, make a separate topic.