Allowing observers

[dweiler]

Then everytime a mod joined obs, a person who might be maphacking will know they are only there to SS test and turn it off.. obviously we are going to keep obs open to both trial vouches and mods at all times, that isn't even up for debate. It is not a "social" thing at all really, but rather a necessity. What is being debated here is whether or not obs should be allowed in order to prevent ghosting, which the vote shows will more than likely not happen.

To be honest, I don't see why mods should get an exception? There is really no necessity in anyone observing ever. Also new vouches can just watch a replay.

Also, I don't see where your conclusion lies that the change will more than likely not happen. I think this vote should not be a 'majority' vote. If 30-40% says they do not feel safe playing with observers, that should be more than enough for moderators to feel to protect them, especially since the importance for people that do want to allow observers aren't bigger than "I like to observe". Just dismissing a concern of a big group of the league by saying "if they don't get majority we do nothing with it" is a big disrespect for the safety and fairplay in the league. The current 'kick on demand'- rule does not suffice for that, since it is not realistically possible to know who ghosts and who not.

I see some arguments in here saying "I like to see 1007 playing": you can always watch replays if you want to see LIHL games. The only thing that is eliminated here is the possibility to see it real time so people can potentially abuse. I do understand some people like to observe games if they are tired or something, but I am sure that those same people do not like the idea they can be ghosted the next game they are not tired and with that trying hard for nothing because they are potentially (untrackably) cheated on.

[FQ-CoM]

@mickeythemouse ofc I can watch 1007 replays, but would you pick them out for me? No, for sure not.

I'm not trying to make enemies in here I'm just letting everyone I know how i feel.

You just said that if 30-40% don't want observers and to keep them "safe" is just "FUCKING" nonsense. We had multiplie votes from where I got vouched and that's not a long time ago, but if you're gonna let the minority decide thist, why not let the MAJORITY decide other things?

Feels like LIHL is slipping throught the mods and ENT's hands. just let me know and I got nothing to wory about going back to ENT31.

IMO this is just nonsense to cause more drama in the league. MMORE than it's already needed. If you can nnot stand for your opinopn, for god sake don't ask for a mod to create a post. Sooner or later reality will catch up and I would be more dissapointed if someone report missbehaving behaviour later than sooner.

Tag me up and we can discuss this private if you have the balls to let me make it "publice". If you can not stand for you own "choice" please shut the fuck up.

[Michonne]

@mickeythemouse ofc I can watch 1007 replays, but would you pick them out for me? No, for sure not.

There you are. https://entgaming.net/customstats/lihl/player/1007/

Enjoy!

[MarshMallows]

Well put it like this.

There are 12 people in a room and 8 of them want to have an orgy but 4 dont... its not really fair to force those 4 to join in the orgy is it

10/10 for your drunk posting fq.com, I consider myself a master, but hell I might even look to you for lessons some day soon <3

[Jamo]

well, tbh, to me it looks like almost everybody here is fine with the obs spots. I don't rly get why you are pushing so hard to close the slots Mickey, was there an incident or something else? At the moment it looks like almost twice the amount of people are fine with it, if this would trigger a change, it wouldn't make any sense to me...

[dweiler]

well, tbh, to me it looks like almost everybody here is fine with the obs spots. I don't rly get why you are pushing so hard to close the slots Mickey, was there an incident or something else? At the moment it looks like almost twice the amount of people are fine with it, if this would trigger a change, it wouldn't make any sense to me...

You can compare this poll with the one on the trust of taking old maphackers back. We take a rate of 80-90% there, because we don't want people to get exposed to the risk if they don't want to and it's not needed. When it is about trusting something you almost can't proof, the trust needs to be really high to allow that. If 9/25 people says they don't trust that is a big group that needs to be taken seriously. With that said, no conclusions yet, of course. We will look at outcomes and arguments and make fair decision.

[Nore]

So, your intent is to never let anyone obs at all? Ofc we are not going to remove mods or trial vouches until there is an entire reworking of the current SS system and vouch system, which has not at all been discussed, so this is rather drastic for you to be declaring. And also, if there is a majority of players who vote "yes" for obs, there is no sense to let 30-40% decide that obs should be removed. That has never been the way things work here in LIHL.. literally not one time has that happened, afaik.

@mickeythemousie I am not sure why you are so adamant about this; I wouldn't even be saying things like "majority matters" if that was not the way we have dealt with all prior issues of the same magnitude. If we removed obsing for moderators, you would effectively remove SS tests altogether. If you remove obsing for trial vouches, there would be little motivation for them to download replays, as they cannot interact with anyone while watching to truly understand what it is they are trying to learn.

I, for one, know I observed as a trial vouch countless games before I ever even attempted to play, because I wanted to be sure I was ready. Taking that away out of "fear" for ghosting is simply illogical. And, allowing maphackers free-reign by eliminating SS tests, just to prevent "possible ghosting" seems even more silly. Please try and think about all aspects before pursuing this further.

[FQ-CoM]

@mickeythemouse ofc I can watch 1007 replays, but would you pick them out for me? No, for sure not.

There you are. https://entgaming.net/customstats/lihl/player/1007/

Enjoy!

Well this was not really what I meant, you want me to go through all of his games????

What I really meant was that I thought that someone could pick out the sick replays from 1007, or any other lihl member. But seems that it's not the case here. FeelsBadMan

[SLSGuennter]

I, for one, know I observed as a trial vouch countless games before I ever even attempted to play, because I wanted to be sure I was ready. Taking that away out of "fear" for ghosting is simply illogical. And, allowing maphackers free-reign by eliminating SS tests, just to prevent "possible ghosting" seems even more silly. Please try and think about all aspects before pursuing this further; I will leave it at that!

Tbh, most SS-test i was part of, there wasnt a mod in obseverspot aswell ... Just whisper the guys which are ingame end tell them to send the SS. Why would you need to be observer to do this. Makes no sense? Maybe YOU should rethink this argument ^^
The "learn-thing" is true though ... yet you could also have watched replays instead of observing.

[supersexyy]

Overwhelming majority voted to keeps obs and obs has been there since day 1 and there have only been a small handful of complaints.

Positives greatly outweigh the negatives.

[Nore]

@Guennter It will be much harder to SS test that way, and realistically there would be much chaos without a mod in-game to help with the process for those struggling.. early unpauses, disorder, bad communication.. i've seen it first-hand before. And all this because some unknown guy "might" be ghosting? That is just concerning SS tests, not everything else involved here.

Weigh the factors and then tell me how great it is to remove obs for everyone. I don't see the poll reflecting such a drastic change, so why would we go through all the trouble of having to rework the entire system for something that may or may not even exist, when most do not want it anyways? I am only speaking this way because I do not think we need more bad vibes around LIHL; seeing as it is just a game, why make things more complicated than they already are? My opinion is just that; an opinion. If more people voted against having obs, there would be no real debate here. But since the idea is being tossed around that "majority is not needed for this", I feel like there is some hidden agenda here and it smells fishy. Why remove obs now after this many seasons? Why wasn't ghosting an issue being talked about before? A million questions could be raised surrounding this subject..

I think it's because fairplay has always been assumed, and whether or not that has been abused is obviously debatable, but that shouldn't just be changed on the drop of a dime because a few people want it to. There is a process, and that should be enacted through the community, who's voice matters above all. When the results are this skewed, imo there is nothing left to debate, unless it swings considerably in the next coming days. Cheers!

[MarshMallows]

We don't really need people observing though...

If your argument is we need obs spots to do SS tests, then you guys should do more than 4 SS tests in a year . I understand why you want to keep observing Nore, it is because you like observe a lot and hang out when you don't want to play and you would miss it, I'm not getting personal, it's just a fact, am I wrong? there is nothing wrong with it and I don't think you ghost or anything, it's just a case of why do we need to take the risk for no reason.

With new vouches they can just watch replays and I am sure that if you put a sticky in the forums with the title "sick replays" or something people will post the link of really amazing games they have played with a short description. I had crazy 2s game with the great fiji the other day which would have been perfect for this, it showed a lot of crazy thought processes!

Observing

Pros:

-New vouches can look at games (not that important as they can look at replays)
-Mods can do SS tests easier (There are basically none ever done and you can do them without a mod in game)

Cons:

-People have the opportunity to cheat
-Causing game bugs
-Accidental pinging (I did this on a send when I was a prospective vouch thinking no one could see it)

Where is the big argument the makes it really important to let people observe games? when people can cheat it just seems like a no brainer to not let the possibility happen!

*edit*

I am also not quite sure why you keep insisting that you will be allowed to observe games as a mod. I trust you or any of the mods no more or less than any other players in the league. If it was to happen that observing was banned I would be very against making an exception for anyone, mod or otherwise. At the end of the day this is an online game and none of us know each other really.

[pewpew lasergun]

i dislike players who dont sign and make us wait and then join ob. because they dodge and want to see what team they can be offered or if a 2s becomes a 3s. then waste time swaping and arguing.

on the other hand if u ban ob, what is our professionnal ob masta supposed to do !

[MarshMallows]

Good point Pew

[Tom_hardy]

Hmm isnt there a difference between observer and referee? I think our obs have referee rights, if we change that they cant whisper anymore, no?