LIHL fantasy league

[dweiler]

@MickeyTheMousie I dont mind if it's the league's wish. However, just keep in mind the prior polls to the suggestion (increasing toxicity, hate, etc.). Finding the proper amount of money is important, imo.

Other than that, the only necessity I see is that the pool money is transferred to ENT directly and rewarded from ENT directly (without any third-party), too.

Actually, I have reconsidered since I messaged you. When I started thinking of betting in our own league it is for me a thing I really do not want and I think we should avoid at all costs in the league. I cannot be a moderator, advocating fairness and sportsmanship when there are people making money (or have an interest) if they lose their games in this league. I also would not want to play in such a league.

[aRt)Y]

@MickeyTheMousie I dont mind if it's the league's wish. However, just keep in mind the prior polls to the suggestion (increasing toxicity, hate, etc.). Finding the proper amount of money is important, imo.

Other than that, the only necessity I see is that the pool money is transferred to ENT directly and rewarded from ENT directly (without any third-party), too.

Actually, I have reconsidered since I messaged you. When I started thinking of betting in our own league it is for me a thing I really do not want and I think we should avoid at all costs in the league. I cannot be a moderator, advocating fairness and sportsmanship when there are people making money (or have an interest) if they lose their games in this league. I also would not want to play in such a league.

Losing a match and thus manipulating the process is ban-able. As for anything in this league, it depends on how much you actually trust your fellow players.

Furthermore, that betting would just be one part of the league and not the league itself. Lastly, I will rephrase my former statement: if the league's moderation is fine with it by majority, then I dont mind.

[dweiler]

Losing a match and thus manipulating the process is ban-able. As for anything in this league, it depends on how much you actually trust your fellow players.

Furthermore, that betting would just be one part of the league and not the league itself. Lastly, I will rephrase my former statement: if the league's moderation is fine with it by majority, then I dont mind.

How is this about trust? If someone is 900 elo and they lose they have a chance for money, and if they win they have 915 elo. It's not asking for trust, it's asking for them to be completely stupid

[TinSoldier]

mick i don't understand your last point can you reword it

also i think you are over reacting to how people will deal with this, i don't think people will play this "long con" to win a mere $80, and in a competitive league where only 5% of the player pool is even participating in it the chances are people get reported if they start to TK on purpose by people not even participating in the fantasy.

i tihnk you should address the comments i made previously in response to your other post before making these ultimatums... i am sure there is room for compromise somewhere to address your concerns

[dweiler]

mick i don't understand your last point can you reword it

i tihnk you should address the comments i made previously in response to your other post before making these ultimatums... i am sure there is room for compromise somewhere to address your concerns

Okay, I will try to explain why I would need a change in this concerning conflict of interests before I could agree with it.

First of all, my last point: Look at the example I gave about Jubadus. I really believe you have to be a saint to not feel any pleasure if you lose there. I can easily imagine you would choose to build pris instead of ea (like Ace said), or play sub-optimal because losing is in fact better for you than winning. I don't think people will go all-out TK, but it would be quite absurd actually, if Jubadus would go 100% for winning this game in this case. I would not blame him for playing sub-optimal, everyone probably would, but I would not want it in my league.

For me it wouldn't be possible ethically to moderate if I moderate in a league where people bet like this in their own league. I understand it is fun to do, I also got excited when I read the plan at first. But even if it is for fun, the fun would be gone quickly if I feel that one of you guys is playing sub-optimal because it is better for their betting league.

And about 'suspecting' that people play worse. I would just refer to dc-penalties and suspected ragequits there. How often did we actually ban someone because our suspicions were strong enough? I think never, maybe once or twice. The same with sub-optimal play. How do you ever want to prove that? It will just lead to long discussions.

[TinSoldier]

well mick you have to keep in mind even if people decide to "tk" or play sub optimal we have two big things to deal with that

1. average elo by roster. So out of 6 people on your roster, or even on someone elses roster one person tanking or purposely tking their elo will not be a huge game changer

2. we take the top 4/6 or 8/10 elos on your roster, therefore the 2 lowest elos of the players you picked dont count. So if you have one person who purposely loses to prevent you from winning, then they can't make a huge difference i.e going below 900 elo because chances are their elos wont even count towards your final roster average at the end of the season.

[Jamo]

I still think it's funny, but I also see the problems Mick has with it. Maybe it would be an issue, maybe not.

I think, this could be easily avoided by lowering the entry fee. I think 20$ is quite a lot, for a 3 months game, where u actually dont do anything besides betting on people once and then sit and wait what happens. I play soccer fantasy and betting games for many many years now, and even there 20€ was really the highest we ever took as an entry fee, and this goes for an entire season. I mean, 20$ each makes this fantasy game more worthwhile than the actual lihl league, lol. Much less players, much more luck involved, much easier to win. So, why not make at least the first season without any money involved and see how it goes?

btw: This all sounds like a lot of work and need for programming. Who will do that? *g*

[dweiler]

well mick you have to keep in mind even if people decide to "tk" or play sub optimal we have two big things to deal with that

1. average elo by roster. So out of 6 people on your roster, or even on someone elses roster one person tanking or purposely tking their elo will not be a huge game changer

2. we take the top 4/6 or 8/10 elos on your roster, therefore the 2 lowest elos of the players you picked dont count. So if you have one person who purposely loses to prevent you from winning, then they can't make a huge difference i.e going below 900 elo because chances are their elos wont even count towards your final roster average at the end of the season.

I think you misunderstood my example? Or otherwise I am misunderstanding you. Tell me if I am making a mistake here:

So Jubadus has 900 elo and (again sorry jubadus! ) he has 1007, fogey and 1006 in his roster in a game. The game looks like this:
tin, juba, hug and avada vs 1007 1006 1005 and fogey. (Can also work with 2 or 1 persons from his roster in other team, just making extreme case to make it clear)

If he goes for winning he will get +15 elo and loses 45 elo on his roster, if he loses he will get -15 elo and +45 elo on his roster. If someone is 900 elo and is somewhere in the top of the betting league, isn't it just logical that he would prefer to lose? I think this is beyond 'trusting' someone, it is just logical he would want to win 100 dollar and not care about 915 or 885 elo, and we would ask stupidity of him to go for winning.

So, why not make at least the first season without any money involved and see how it goes?

Maybe that could be a solution to try it out, if people really want this. I would personally prefer not to until the conflicts of interest are resolved. If we manage to find some betting/fun extra's without it negatively influencing the core business (competitive games), I am all for it. I think we should focus on making better rules on this, then try it. (Like I said, in the current form it is impossible for me to moderate)

[FadingSuns]

First of all i wanna clarify i like the idea and i appreciate the effort done by all ppl involved (tin, hug, mods, etc). Just my feeling is this is just a baby idea and we need it to grow up. This is still incomplete and need sone fixes/improvements before go live. What worries me most is the amount of rage in case fail heal, dc, tk (not on purpose) and this will surely reduce the trust in some specific games.

How many games are hosted each season? I dont think is gona be hard to find a big amount of games where tk ur team will benefit ur pool (tk = play priso instead of ea, not meaning a izi tk but as mick call a suboptimal build, hard to recognize). We talk about 50/60 regular players and thousands of games hosted....

For me particulary nothing will change, i always try my best and i dont give a fk about 100$, but i cant talk for all...

[HugMeOnce]

Points about throwing:

1. Most people will bid and roster for themselves. Double incentive. If we have 10 participants and 6 out of 10 roster themselves we'll only have to keep an eye on 4-5 players all season for such throwing. For example, how often is Tin going to be against a specific roster of say Sony-, Nl113, Pewpew, Fate when everyone is in different timezone.

2. There will be at least a 2 person cushion per roster. In the unlikely scenario that a person who didn't roster himself will be against 4 players that are in his roster without having any of his own roster on his team... if he throws it will be will be max +60 elo.

3. Obvious throws will be discussed with the participants and if it gets to the point that its obvious then we have no problem refunding everyone their money and shutting it down completely.

4. The people who are the most skeptical about throws/collusion aren't even interested in joining. Ie people who brought up throwing and have that mindset Mick, Ace. I'm fully ready to police any action immediately please refer back to point 3. Mick you won't be the one dealing with it as it'll be the player pool that will be contacted because they will have the vested interest.

5. Reiterate point 1... the amount of players that would throw is such a small amount and would be placed under a microscope.

6. Look at the people who are registered already:

Tin - most try hard player in the league, definitely needs the 100 dollars the most but at least is employed (cheat level: unlikely)
Nore - LIHL mod (cheat level: highly unlikely)
Beast - sorry beast im gonna expose you but this guy makes close to 6 figures (cheat level: highly unlikely)
BA_Fail - Been around since the beginning, doesn't play often = small chance of even having the chance to cheat (cheat level: highly unlikely)
Hug - My morals are worth more to me than $100. Guarantee I would not throw a game to get an unfair advantage in something I helped to organize.

I can only speak on behalf of #TeamMumble but we've really all known each other for years. It would be pretty sad if people wanted to start cheating each other in a game that we all love, a game that brought us together in the first place. The other people that showed interest of the top off my head Pew-Pew, LForward, MindMachine, Nl113, DIablo (lihl mod) seem to be decent human beings and wouldn't cheat over a 2 month period for such a low amount of money.

7. Lastly and obviously imo, I think if anything it will be beneficial to the league. I think its revitalizing and will give renewed interest in playing in LIHL. It might even help to sustain players in the league when LTD2 becomes fully released to the public.

[pewpew lasergun]

mickey just doesnt like any gambling any lihl.
on the otther i dont think anyone gives a damn about $80 to affect the gameplay.
give it a try see how it goes ^^

[dweiler]

mickey just doesnt like any gambling any lihl.

Well, I am not gambling man, but I think having 2 leagues in 1 league where losing in one makes you win in the other, are just a really bad things for the league. I don't think there is any league that promotes sportsmanship that allows people to bet on their own games. Betting on someone else winning while you can be in the opponent team is just asking for trouble (i.e. you are betting against yourself). For the record, I don't think the people who signed up for the league are bad people, but we just should not expose ourselves to it.

One solution that I see that can work is that the players who play in this league do not let the games count where they play AGAINST people in their roster. So if I have pewpew-lasergun in my roster, I play vs him in a game, I will note the score that needs to be taken off for the betting league (for example +15 elo if you won, and if you play vs 2 players +30 elo, etc, and if you lose you take the points off again from the enemy team ). It will take some administration from the people involved in the league, but I think it is the only way to make your betting league work without the conflict of interest. (We are still discussing the modes for next season, but if we bring back the +15/-15 mode, this administration will be easy ).

If you make it compulsory for people to draft themselves in their roster, it will be even less administration, namely only the games where you play vs 2 or more people from your roster (and probably even in this small group of games, you can swap them to your same team so you don't need to do the administration, which will lead to a very small amount of games that need to be nullified)

[Dong]

I agree with Mick here.

[Nore]

I cannot fathom someone throwing in order to win 80 dollars.. we all spend a very large amount of our time playing here, which cannot be summed in dollar signs. We will only allow people trustworthy to enter the league ofc, and will be strictly watching to see any type of "abuse" but just like LIHL this fantasy league would need to be trusted. Btw other leagues do indeed allow their players to partake in such things; NFL players can make fantasy teams, NBA players can do the same.. ect. All leagues I know of allow this kind of thing, it's different than actually "betting" it's more of a game within a game. It's when you start putting money on spreads(like 14-9 Seattle will win by +5) when it truly is "betting".

This is very different in all aspects really. Reiterating what Hug has already said, if we suspect any foul play, we will cancel the fantasy season and refund everyone(or have ENT take care of that part). I believe this to be a fun and healthy way for players to remain involved in LIHL even when they are not necessarily playing. 80 dollars is far from a large cash payout; anyone willing to "tk" for that needs to reassess themselves anyways, and I am willing to "bet" that it will be a total non-issue. Just some food for thought for any of the skeptical people out there; don't shoot down something before at least giving it a chance!

[pewpew lasergun]

mickey !! work 1 day at mcdonalds = more than $80
i dont see anyone working lihl 3 months to win that $80
unless someone lives in some poor country
this is just a symbolic win $ amount like the tourney ^^