Game to be Adjusted/Voided/Acted upon

[Drahque]

In following game Dweller went merc by accident:
- https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=1819291

The enemy team refused to draw, which is indeed against the spirit of this game, when it's no longer 3v3 prophet. As seen in this topic, it's punishable as Supersexxy says: "12 hour unvouch for acting against the spirit of the game":
- viewtopic.php?f=85&t=13417


Also, seen in this game, where Braveheart accidentally goes merc on level 23, everyone instantly drawed the game. Since this is indeed the spirit of the game:
- https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=1777490

If there isn't done anything about this, or a rule invented very soon, it could be miss-used in the future (to get away with a teamkill). Let's say BA_fail doesn't like me, so he could then switch merc "by accident" and get away with it. This is the reason I did make following post:
- viewtopic.php?f=72&t=13213

[dweiler]

Well since I am the one who went merc..

I did it while I tried to antistuck on 15, and we lost level 16, leaking all lanes. So I don't think 1 or 2 extra towers would have made the difference if we lived and our loss should stay.

I see Supersexyy said he would do dc-penalty, so go ahead if you that's necessary.

[Drahque]

I did it while I tried to antistuck on 15, and we lost level 16, leaking all lanes. So I don't think 1 or 2 extra towers would have made the difference if we lived and our loss should stay.

We could actually had survived, 500 gold is a big difference, especially on lvl 16 which is very weak to king. When we died, there were only between 11 and 15 commanders left on king, which doesn't require much to survive with fortified armor king vs. magic and regen. We all know, that king can easily hold 40 leaks on lvl 16, if regen is upped.

So, thoose 500 gold could indeed had done a huge difference between holding or not holding on 16.


But after all, this is not the point. The point is enemy team refused to go with the spirit of the league, and draw like they did in the game Braveheart went merc. And that 2 enemies are forced to play 2 prophets vs. 3 prophets, which makes the game extremely uneven. Let's say we had survived 16, we would have been fucked up on 20+ for sure, cause 2v3 or maybe even 2v4, due to merc not being able to build = extra spawn. So, the right the only way to make it fair play, is if the merc had left the game. So we don't have to handle 1 extra spawn, which can't be build for.

Anyways:
- One person wen't merc
- Enemy team refused to draw
- Going against the spirit of the league
- Previous merc games was drawed immediately
- Achillesgr tried to lie, that we hadn't merc, cause he believed we would win 20
- Achillesgr said he had to go, and would leave, in order to save Dwellers mistake
- Achillesgr missinformed enemy team, and refused to draw aswell
- Achillesgr unpaused a game, where we paused, to solve the problem

A lot of mistakes were made this game, I do really hope an moderator can look into this, some punishment and rules need to be made, so all of these things above isn't miss-used in the future. Making chaos in a game. Such as lying to enemies, unpausing or not knowing if we should draw or not.

P.S. this is Achilles 2nd offensve in a couple of days. By telling enemy team he had to go and we don't have a merc, they didn't know if they should draw or not. And by unpausing a game, he forced us to die, before we even could talk about what we were going to do...

[DonaldtheDuckie]

I think you should go outside and enjoy the beautiful weather in denmark atm. Get some friends together and host a barbeque like Im doing in 20 min. It's only a game =)

edit: I dont believe that there should be applied a dc penalty if any team loses the same round.

Nothing would have changed if he did not go merc, I See a player who upped all the right towers for 16 , and tbh, if he had been afk for 1 round so he forgot to build or something, that would have been way worse.


I dont think any actions should be taken, as it is clearly a mistake and did not distort the real outcome of the game.

[dweiler]

I think you should go outside and enjoy the beautiful weather in denmark atm. Get some friends together and host a barbeque like Im doing in 20 min. It's only a game =)

Lol we should have told you this before the tour final

Anyway, I don't why a murderfest should be preferred to getting some clarity in something that is obviously important to Drahque.

[Drahque]

Nothing would have changed if he did not go merc, I See a player who upped all the right towers for 16 , and tbh, if he had been afk for 1 round so he forgot to build or something, that would have been way worse.

It doesn't matter if it had changed the game or not, we don't know for sure. But the point is, we had a merc on round 14 or 15, and tried to draw it. But enemy team didn't know if it was a joke or not, since Achillesgr distorted the truth, as you can see in the chat:

(30:38 / Allied) dweller: OMG
(30:43 / Allied) dweller: I SWITCHED TO MERC {round 14 ot 15}
(30:44 / Allied) Achillesgr: help on anti
(30:45 / Allied) dweller: MERC
(30:47 / Allied) Drahque: LOL
(30:48 / Allied) Achillesgr: oh
(30:50 / Allied) Achillesgr: oh
(30:52 / Allied) Drahque: !draw
(30:52 / All) helekiller: Player [Drahque] has voted to draw the game. 6 more votes are needed to pass the draw vote.
(30:54 / Allied) Achillesgr: what we do
(30:54 / All) Drahque: merc {enemy team informed}
(30:56 / All) dweller: ...........

(30:57 / Allied) Achillesgr: shut up
(30:58 / Allied) Drahque: merc = draw
(31:01 / Allied) Drahque: it is
(31:02 / Allied) Drahque: read forums
(31:03 / All) Achillesgr: he is kiding {achilles lying...}
(31:05 / All) Achillesgr: i have to go
(31:09 / All) Achillesgr: or word
(31:12 / All) Achillesgr: work
(31:14 / All) Achillesgr:
(31:15 / All) Drahque: we have to draw, we got merc
(31:20 / All) dweller: i have switched to merc -.-


Look closely as what Achillesgr is saying:
(30:57 / Allied) Achillesgr: shut up {disrespect?}
(31:03 / All) Achillesgr: he is kiding
(31:05 / All) Achillesgr: i have to go
(31:09 / All) Achillesgr: or word
(31:12 / All) Achillesgr: work {lies, and if he had to go, we should've drawed}

He is trying to defend Dweller's mistake and worst of all, miss-informing enemy team. We had a merc already on 30:38, and we first died NEXT round, whole 4 minutes later. Achillesgr kept unpausing the game, when we tried to sort out what to do.

Even Dweller is drawing, and Braveheart telling that the game he went merc, everyone did immediately draw the game, even though it was lvl 23 (20+). And if it counts as someone leaving/DC, when they go merc, then according to the rule it should indeed be drawed. After all, it IS AGAINST THE RULES, to go merc. So if someone goes merc, the game doesn't follow all the rules and is those not counted as a real game. This mean, it should indeed be drawed or in this case voided, since it's like playing 2v3 before lvl 20. And if the round had to be played out, then we shoulda drawed on end of 15, since he went merc already on 14 or 15.


We really tried to inform enemy team what
(30:52 / Allied) Drahque: !draw
(30:52 / All) helekiller: Player [Drahque] has voted to draw the game. 6 more votes are needed to pass the draw vote.
(30:54 / All) Drahque: merc
(30:57 / Allied) Achillesgr: shut up
(30:58 / Allied) Drahque: merc = 2v3 = draw
(31:15 / All) Drahque: we have to draw, we got merc
(31:20 / All) dweller: i have switched to merc -.-
(31:27 / All) Drahque: read forums, I made a topic about it
(32:13 / All) Drahque: we have to draw guys {merc against the rules}
(32:17 / All) dweller: !draw {even the moderator is drawing..}
(32:17 / All) helekiller: Player [dweller] has voted to draw the game. 5 more votes are needed to pass the draw vote.
(32:17 / All) Drahque: moderator say game will be drawed and elo penalty will be made
(32:17 / All) Drahque: read forums
(32:17 / All) dweller: give me dc penalty {DC = Draw, cause 2v3}
(32:17 / All) Drahque: cause we have a merc ..
(32:17 / All) dweller: i went merc {telling enemy team again}
(32:17 / All) Drahque: mick missclciked by accident
(32:17 / All) dweller: misclicked anti-stuck
(33:22 / All) Drahque: if u dont draw
(33:22 / All) Drahque: u risk getting 12 hours unvouch
(33:23 / All) Arishok: ?
(33:23 / All) Feor: dont be stupid
(34:00 / All) Feor: who cant properly use hotkeys {first here they realise it's no joke}
(34:01 / All) Drahque: we should draw ...
(34:04 / All) Braveheart_wins: we did the draw in that other game {Other game = Drawed}
(34:09 / Allied) Drahque: PAUSE
(34:10 / Allied) Drahque: ffs {3 minutes has gone since merc switch}

Even if the round should be played out before draw, we should have drawed on end of round 15, since Dweller already went merc on round 14 or 15. And let's say that enemy team didn't send 16 or we survived 16, then Achilles wanted to play the game out, even though it would be like having an AFK'er on lvl 15 + 16 + 17 + 18 + 19 ... and maybe even 20+. How is it fair to play like that?

[BA_Fail]

People have accidentally gone merc before, and it will happen more times than we would like. The only two viable solutions would be to give the person who went merc a dc penalty, or just take the loss. If the rules say that the game needs to be drawed, that is stupid and very easy to abuse. If it really does look like a mistake it should just be a loss for both of you, people make mistakes, deal with it.

[iightfyre]

Here is what I see:

1. East king dies with ~ 30 dinos still left. Dweller had 850 gold at the start of this round. Would that have made a difference in a loss? Hard to say but I speculate that it would not have changed the outcome.

2. There is no rule set for accidental merc switching (an oversight by the mods) - We cannot use Braveheart's game as precedent on how to handle a game like this. This example is not a rule, it was action taken by players in their own judgement.

3. Achilles did indeed troll a little by stating that dweller was kidding (imo - achilles was kidding also) This is where he retracts his initial statements:

(31:47 / All) Achillesgr: its ok
(31:57 / All) Achillesgr: that happens
(32:01 / Allied) Drahque: ye
(32:04 / All) Achillesgr: cause anti is next to merc
(32:08 / All) Achillesgr: they must put it off
(32:10 / All) Achillesgr: from lihl

In conclusion

A) I already spoke with Achilles to ensure that he does not troll in situations like this. There will be not likely be any other action taken against Achilles other than the verbal warning.
B) There will be an "accidental merc switch" rule set forth but we are drafting it at the moment so please be patient until we post a rule (it will NOT be retroactive)
C) One of three things are going to happen with this game
1 - No action taken, East gets a loss
2 - Game is nulled and a DC penalty is enforced
3 - Game is not nulled and a DC penalty is still enforced

Please be patient with us for the next few hours while the mods handle this case.

We take all complaints seriously - thank you for posting

[dweiler]

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure I upgraded before this round.. Maybe I had 150 gold or something, but not more. I will watch it back to see if my memory fails me.

[iightfyre]

Good point Mick, I was wondering where all your gold went, I didn't see the towers get upgraded. My first view of this replay I only looked at your gold at the end of lvl 15. Thanks for pointing this out!!!

[Drahque]

C) One of three things are going to happen with this game
1 - No action taken, East gets a loss
2 - Game is nulled and a DC penalty is enforced
3 - Game is not nulled and a DC penalty is still enforced

Please be patient with us for the next few hours while the mods handle this case.

We take all complaints seriously - thank you for posting

Good to hear you're looking at it, so I'll keep this reply short as short as possible, since it might have an effect on the decision.

Here is what I see:
1. East king dies with ~ 30 dinos still left. Dweller had 850 gold at the start of this round. Would that have made a difference in a loss? Hard to say but I speculate that it would not have changed the outcome.

2. There is no rule set for accidental merc switching (an oversight by the mods) - We cannot use Braveheart's game as precedent on how to handle a game like this. This example is not a rule, it was action taken by players in their own judgement.

1. I do really believe 850 gold can do wonder in Lihl, especially on a duo lane, it can makes easily make 5-8 units extra survive, since 850 in damage output = the units dies faster = less units dies. I'm 98 % confident, that if this game is remade at lvl 16 with same towers, but his 850 gold spend, then there would have been way more creeps alive to hold middle and those way less leak to king. We all know that 16 is very weak to king, and extremely unsual to kill someone on. And the most important fact here, is that Dweller switched merc BEFORE 16, already at 14 or 15, so it doesn't matter what the outcome had been on 16.

2. It's both true and false. There is a rule that states that at no point is anyone allowed to switch to merc, but the rule doesn't clarify what will be done in the scenario. But usually, if a rule is broken, it doesn't count as a real game (since it didn't go according to the rules):

Code: Select all

1. MERCENARY
Under no circumstances is any player permitted to switch to the mercenary builder.

I don't see why we should have played a game out, where we broke the 1st and one of the MOST important and essential rule in whole Lihl, and one of the points this League were made - to play without mercenerys. There were recently added that a round should be played out before a game is drawed and in this case it should have happened latest at end of round 15.

P.S. one important fact to notice, is you decide to let the game count, me and achillesgr will be punished for someone else breaking the rule. Also, if you decide to not null the game, Dweller might be double-punished by both getting a DC penalty and a loss, which is whole 35-40 elo from one game, which is way too much if you ask me. IMO, there should really be a fourth solution; "The game is nullified and a DC penalty is applied". This way, everyone should be happy and Dweller won't be over-punished and neither feel like his missclick affected his teammates. Also, we follow the spirit of the league, at least according to previous encidents.

P.S.S. for the rule, keep in mind that it must not be miss-used, so make sure it counts as a leave / the player gets a DC penalty. Otherwise someone who knows they'll lose, can miss-use it.

AND Sorry for the inconvenience, I'm just really trying to lay every fact on the table, so the best solution can be made for everyone. (:

[iightfyre]

Remember

1) It was an accident on dweller's part
2) Dweller did in fact spend his gold so the outcome of a loss is 99% certain
3) Option #2 states what you have offered as option #4

[Drahque]

2) Dweller did in fact spend his gold so the outcome of a loss is 99% certain

Wasn't there a rule invented a couple of weeks ago, that said, if a player disconnects or a rule is broken, then the game needs to be drawed at the 'end of the round'. In this case, we should've drawed latest at end of round 15, meaning what happened at round 16, has no influence. Please, correct me if I''m wrong here.

3) Option #2 states what you have offered as option #4

Oh my bad, sorry. (:

I'm officially a forum whore - I promiesd to stay quite, but I just have too many thoughts to share sometimes. ;D'

[Feor]

2. There is no rule set for accidental merc switching (an oversight by the mods) - We cannot use Braveheart's game as precedent on how to handle a game like this. This example is not a rule, it was action taken by players in their own judgement.

Exactly what I told you in game when you paused Drahque, while you were insisting that we will be unvouched for 12hours.

[iightfyre]

Wasn't there a rule invented a couple of weeks ago, that said, if a player disconnects or a rule is broken, then the game needs to be drawed at the 'end of the round'

Can you find the quote in the rules? If I remember correctly there was discussion but I don't believe anything was set in stone.