archers play

[elektro]

Well, i´d like to explain my logic in building archers. as u saw, i prefer to build archers v form and not both against wall. Logic is simple, in v form they split the dmg between them, its a sure hold vs lvl 4 and if u continue third ea for 5 (overbuilding) u are sure og going mid. Instead, if u go archers against the wall, we got 2 facts. first, lvl 3 there are 70% chances u lose first archer, being atacked by all creeps, and the second 1 will have 80% of hp. same goes for lvl 4 and 5. in fact, for 5 ure sure of losing 1 ea ( again, considering u ob) and 3 ea with 40% hp each always better to hold mid then 2 archers 70% hp. But its just my opinion. What do u think? correct me if i am wrong.

[iightfyre]

Archers against the wall is the most popular choice because it is proven to be consistently effective. "We" do not use archers for anything except level 1-10 income strats. They will not hog up valuable real estate in the center of your build for later levels. The "5 archer against the wall" will always hold lvls 1-9 with the exception of blood orc on lvl 3 and any sends on lvl 7. This is known and is not an issue because the strat is used only as an early income advantage.

*The fact that archers may be low hp after clearing your lane is moot because the intention of building archers is NOT to catch ally leaks.

Hope this helps

[tastay]

the V shape is a noob move

you always want to build so the units clog to one side especially with archers

[Hutzu]

These two already added some aspects of why wall-build >>> V-build for archers

Archers against the wall is the most popular choice because it is proven to be consistently effective. "We" do not use archers for anything except level 1-10 income strats. They will not hog up valuable real estate in the center of your build for later levels. The "5 archer against the wall" will always hold lvls 1-9 with the exception of blood orc on lvl 3 and any sends on lvl 7. This is known and is not an issue because the strat is used only as an early income advantage.

*The fact that archers may be low hp after clearing your lane is moot because the intention of building archers is NOT to catch ally leaks.

Hope this helps

you always want to build so the units clog to one side especially with archers

Also with V-build you have less chances to hold 10 with archers. You want your lower attack-speed units (the elite-archer) to die first. The small archers attack faster and do the same damage (screw the 0.5 difference). The V-build would mess up the focus on the bosses and make you split the damage on them, compared to the L-build that comes from the wall-build.

[MichaelSong]

I do not like LIHL players to follow or play like guidelines, All players play should be respected.
However, since this is high-skilled league, I think players should have basic knowledge on towers at least when they're playing in LIHL and should play with their towers to maximize their effectiveness of holding or yoloing.
Archers with Wall build ( vertical build ) shows extremely more efficient than V build. ( horizontal slope build )
I could guess that archers with V build want to share dmg at lvl such as lvl 3,5,7 (especially 7) and try to hold their lanes more better.
But, as iightfyre mentioned, archers are not towers which have to go mid usually, it is rather yolo towers to big yolo at early.
I would not recommend archers with V build.

FYI, I have mentioned elektro-'s V archer build in application of BBo.BBo and I would guess this thread is due to this reason.
I won't say "please change" But, try to play several Wall build ( L build or vertical build or whatever ) , not V build so you can feel which one is better. There should be reason since why majority of players ( not majority, all players imo except you ) play L build of archers like textbook.

[elektro]

i will try it next time i get archers, but i have to say, i never saw 4 ea holding lvl 8 no send in vertical line build. And i always hold lvl 8 with 4 ea in v form because of that split dmg between them. and about what hutzu said, i am totally against trying to hold lvl 10 with archers. there are few exceptions cases of course, for example, u burnt out all heals at lvl 5 7 8 and u need a holder for 10 and noone has god units for holding 10 except archer. in the rest of cases archer should never fuck up his yolo staying 7 3 or 7 4 to try kill 10. but hey, as i told u, i will build next time vertical build and i will come back posting the diferences i experienced.
EDIT . i always hold lvl 8 with 4 EA when no send ofc.
EDIT 2. IF u want the units to clog before reaching your archers in v form, just build a tier one against the wall 2 spaces in front of those archers.
AS for igtyfire, in v form i almost everytime holded lvl 3 with bo, of course, leaking the bo itself.

[Hutzu]

The archer-hold for 10 has another up-side as well. If you got no holder for lvl 14 like blasters, then you have to spam EAs anyway. Well, if you got blasters as well, then of course not. And 7/5 with archers and holding isn't all bad tbh.

[elektro]

i never saw a 7 5 archer holding lvl 10 his lane, not even in lihl, when the send for lvl 10 is solid.
EDIT. I saw so many times failed attempts of holding 10 with archer in lihl, succeded only to fuck up his elo, and no holding.

[elektro]

well to make a point. https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=5210054 this is a game lost by me, with archers.
What i want to show is, me and healbycolor overbuilding archers for 5 (3ea each). He went vertical build, i went v form. I guess both got 2 bo, and he got 2 bo and 1 hermit. i dont know if thats the reason he leaked hawks and i didnt, and i dmged so hard the 2 bo that i got. i think that.s because of building style.
edit: lets put it this way. V form is better for lvl 3, lvl 4, lvl 5, 6 and 8. and vertical build is better for lvl 7, if u go 5 ea with the intention of holding. Am i right ?

[SLSGuennter]

@elektro
wall is better to be low-value on 5/6 and is better for 7(kill more with same value) and 8 in any case
2 ea are good in 3 anyway, no matter what build.
v is better in 4, though i never have a prob in 4 tbh and for holding in 5, but archers arent best holder for 5 anyway, since they often die vs bo in mid.

so all in all i dont see any good reason to go for v-build.

btw, i already saw archer-hold in 10 with 7/5 (though not against a real send, just against enemy which did send 7/8 and kinged for 10)

[Hutzu]

I did hold 10 with 7/5 and archers before, even in lihl and against sends.
The replay you linked, HBC gets 2 BOs and 1 hermit. You have 3 treants, he has only 1 peasant. So the comparison doesn't work so well in that example.

If you build them on wall, they attack the same targets and kill them off faster, compared to V-build. For example, building turrets on V-build is usually just terrible as their 'splash' damage needs to be added up not distributed. Yes V-build distributes the damage you take more equally, but also the damage you deal.

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Edit:
Just got archers and played for hold on 10. I had 7/5 and 1590 value, 135 (or so) income, lihl game, vs sends.
https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=5214499

[pewpew lasergun]

look this archer replay in #1100
7/6 i think
I go mid at 10
hold mid 15 / 20
hold mid 27 alone ( about 40 leaks and 8 demons krakens )

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=5210460

archer r27 hold.w3g

(3.57 MiB) Downloaded 25 times

[eldryan]

I like the V strat. I've done it pretty regularly in LIHL.

[elektro]

i played, as i promised 1 game with orizontal build archers and i leaked lvl 4 with 2 ea 1 murloc in a vertical lane. no more words, i will always play v form, anyone freee to play whatever he wants, but v form far more better than vertical build. ps. Pewpew was in game, he is witness.
EDIT https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=5217270

[MichaelSong]

I would not say more if you think like that, I do respect your playstyle.
( But, hope you don't roll archers when you're same team with me. )
It's between jk and hope.