ENT Gaming

The ultimate balancing thread.

This is a work in progress. Now that we have some map editing ability it would be awesome to balance legion to increase the skill cap. Less archer/aqua ez mode yolo and more on the spot thinking.

Firstly there are numerous aspects of balancing. What most people forget is everything needs to remain unique. There are multiple ways to balance anything but this is integral. Eg when balancing archers it's not good to reduce the multishot as that is the elite archer characteristic.

Many people may not like a balanced updated version because let's face it: many players would rather follow an elite archer imba build and call themselves a pro than to have to figure out a build which is possibly sub optimal.

FAQS
1. There's no point balancing king skills, this game is luck based.

The whole point of balancing is to remove the luck factor so each component has unique advantages and disadvantages. No king skill should be superior to another.

2. Oracle/warchief/someotherbadcrossunit is op, needs a nerf
This map will be balanced for the top league of players as all competitive maps are.

Current issues and how they are addressed
1. Clog
-Changes to spawn waves so all levels have kill potential
-increased king bounty for opposition
2. Impact of randomness - towers/king skill
-King skills balanced through spawn wave balancing, see king skill section
-slight balancing of towers, also balanced through spawn waves
3. Games revolving around certain levels
-spawn waves balanced so all levels are equally threatening

Three categories of balancing

Spawn Waves

Theoretically all levels should be equally threatening. Currently the game revolves around certain key levels. Balancing all levels will greatly increase the range of strategies. On average a team sending level 6 should be as threatening as a team sending level 7.

Where the number spawns have increased bounties should be adjusted so the overall wave gives the same gold

1. -3 OK

4) 5% hp boost

5) fine

6) 10% hp boost

7) 5% damage reduction

8) Fine

9) Movement speed boost

10) OK

11-14 Receive relative buffs due to Behemoth and Kraken to be made available for these levels.

11) 20% hp boost

12) 5% damage increase Phase boots when reaching mid

13) +50% spawn amount 70% HP (As opposed to 66% hp to balance spawn adjustment)

14) OK

15) OK

16) +5% hp Phase boots when reaching mid

17) -5% hp

18) +10% hp

19) +10% damage, increased movement speed

20) Fine

20)+ Will work on later

King Skills

Firstly note that although currently certain skills are superior to others, please note the impact the changes to unit waves will have. Eg IMMO is OP due to the impact it has on level 7. If levels are balanced immo can have significant drawbacks as it is useless on range/air levels.

a) Immolation

Currently in a good spot

b) Stomp

Currently in a good spot

c) Wave

CD Reduction (unspecified amount)

Units

Exact values to follow.

Please note the changes to the spawn waves will have a significant impact on units. Eg Currently elite archers are OP but a buff to level 4, 6, 9 will be a relative nerf to them.

We will start with the most op/up towers first:

Needs nerf (towers you almost always build)
archer
Aqua
Ygg
Chopper


Needs buff (towers you almost never build)
Zombie
Wandigoo
Minotaur
Priest
Dark priest (meridian is ok)
Cyborg
Steam tank
Unupgraded warlock
Tempest
Seer

Gameplay changes

-Behemoth kraken available for 11-14. Increases kill potential.
-King leak bounty for opposing team 1.5x-2x

Possible changes (to discuss)

]
-King strength/upgrade potential lvl 1-10 compared to 11-20

Reserved

Well, this was not really good. I disagree with everything you said actually - The only level I see a problem with is level 12.

All those units you mentioned, sure they bad. If you can work on good balance changes then put them up, I will gladly read them.

I'm surprised you see level 6 as big of a threat as level 7.

I don't see it as a thread, but I don't think it needs a buff. Level 6 is a very good made level, good for yolo, good for tactic send in (rare cases) and is a slow leak level (skill involved). If you buff level 6, you destroy pretty much the entire gameplay.

I think you're missing the point of balancing. Balancing all levels increases the range of strategies. I guess yes you could say that I'm attempting to kill the donkey yolo into clog/1holder 7 pro strat that happens in 95% of games

That's not the actual gameplay anymore, and yes I like balance, but like I said, I don't agree with "your!" balance suggestions, since they bad. But if you can work on something better maybe you can get me convinced that level 6 needs a buff. But just buffing it because you want it to be a thread like level 7 is just a bad suggestion.

Maps should be balanced.
The meta should revolve around the map, the map should not revolve around the meta.

Ok final comment:

I think the map is very good from 1-20. (level 12 is meh) Ballista bugged as far as I know-
21-22-23 waste of time.
24 good versus very few units, blasters, greys and hydras.
25-26-27-28 good.
29 useless.
30 useless. (can be a skill to leak so dd possible)
31-32-33-34 gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooD
So overall pretty good levels/map balanced.

Units, this is a list of units I 100 % agree can use some kind of a buff.
Tier 6 - Dp, frostdragon, seer, Hawk/Griffon.
Tier 5 - Knight, Zombie/Pudge, WandiGGoo, Doppelganger, Apparition.
Tier 4 - Overseer
Tier 3 - Alphamale, the net is so bad on all levels except if trap demon.
Tier 2 - Slavemaster
Tier 1 - Colt

supersexyy wrote:Maps should be balanced.
The meta should revolve around the map, the map should not revolve around the meta.

Thank you @nabo. @brouder and @halibel for updating ltd. ltd meta from one point started to be based on abusing glitch and mechanics and mods couldnt make the rules to contain the situation. Nabo contacted ltd map makers on official ltd forum and ltd2 mapmakers and others who could help with the map, while old mods watched ltd going bad and worse. Instad of appreciating his efforts, I remember you only bitched at him.

Have you played brouder's map? He is an expert with ltd mechanics and towers. He made balance adjustments on his previous versions, but what happened? People only bitched because they refused to change and adjust their gameplays and strategies. Instead of pure balance, it seems ltd elites prefer some unbalance for dynamics. So, I dont think nerfing great towers such as tok, archers, aqua, etc is a good idea. But, buffing towers like wandigo should be done since no one uses this tower. Everyone knows what towers are frequently used and not. No point discussing about balance since no one here really knows much about collision and exact damage interaction. I thought further changes to the map including balances will be done by brouder on his map. Halibel should be limited in making changes to a locked map.

Instead of of discussing about balance when no one really knows much about tower collision and damage interaction, players just need to have an open mind and be ready to accept new changes.

#my2cents

I'm not sure why you quoted my post without commenting on it.

I'm also not sure what to take out of that post.

craxyoyo wrote:Instead of pure balance, it seems ltd elites prefer some unbalance for dynamics.

You are basically saying that currently the map is imbalanced and should stay that way? I have already noticed in the opening post that changes may not be popular as 'pros' like to stick to a fail-safe build and call themselves a pro than to use tower/unit knowledge to perfect a build.

craxyoyo wrote:No point discussing about balance since no one here really knows much about collision and exact damage interaction.

There is definitely room to discuss balance. It's quite obvious level 6 is weak and level 7 is strong. You don't need to look at numbers and collision to realise this. A perfect map won't be achieved but balancing is a step towards it. Balancing will increase the skill cap which is what I'm seeking.

Krakens on lvls 11-14 would mean u'd never see any lvl after 14 if u ask me. but i still really like the idea here. i''ve been an advocate of balance changes since i started playing this game. my favorite idea is increased king bounty for the opposition, makes it much more rewarding to make your enemies king leak. as far as buffing the weak towers goes, some units need a MASSIVE buff, while some could use a sensitive touch. for example, a cyborg (and korogoth) wouldn't become viable if u give it like a 5% hp bonus or a 10% attack speed bonus, some units need a MASSIVE buff. because your approach to the game is the same as me, why should any tower(or level or king spell) be far superior to another, in every aspect. u'd never see that in dota for more than a patch long, for example.

well
maybe
-Behemoth kraken available for 11-14. Increases kill potential-
i wont kra available 11~14 but 13-14 behemoth available is can be a solution to against immo and archer
immo and archer need more count attack lv(no need nerf)

A lot of things here seem quite legit, though i dont understand this massive boost on 18. 18 already is a pain!

Also there should be a balance on sends imo (nobody ever sends whelp/panda/infernal).
Lvl 15 isnt rly "ok" imo, its still weak, especially cause dd happens all the time and somebody goes to hold due to this.

Thanks for the feedback. I think most games end on 15 or 17 so I think these are the most threatening levels. I think buffing 12-14 is an indirect nerf to 15 so it will be in a good spot.
You're correct that balancing sends is something which should be looked at and I had forgotten about it. For now I think it has the lowest priority in terms of balancing.