[ID] arizona@uswest.battle.net

[Schnuts]

Replay Link: http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 536765.w3g
Game Name: [ENT] Island Defense #8
Your Warcraft III Username: Carlyb
Violator's Warcraft III Username: arizona@uswest.battle.net
Violated Rule(s): Team kill
Time of Violation (in-game or replay): 22:00
Any further thoughts:
Team killed my ARC @ 22:00

Link to original ban request: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=125872

This is a follow up request to the original as i believe the original decision was made out of poor judgement or perhaps oversighted the reality of the situation.

Post by Burn » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:51 pm
You ignored all the warnings and you still built it, then post BRQ when he denies it for space in an extremely small base.

This is incorrect. At approximately 13:30 i ping makura (coco@useast.battle.net)'s base as i place an arc inside and share control (will 'DRM' show this?). The reason i do this is because I KNOW coco@useast.battle.net doesn't speak english , or at the vary least knows several phrases. Immediately after this, makura detonates fruit trees to make way for arc. I mistakenly said in the original ban request that coco@useast.battle.net built the arc , however upon review it seems that i built the structure FIRST without finishing it, to further confirm the placement and THEN coco took over and completed the structure. This is evident even in a normal replay. Perhaps a mod could shed further light on this

As for this comment made literally as coco (the base owner) was finishing building the structure:
(13:57 / Allied) Arizona: no
(14:00 / Allied) Arizona: get out of our base

to me this just seemed like a further attempt at trolling. The player was upset toward me most presumably for the comments made earlier in the game (to which i DO apologise).

Post by Burn » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:51 pm
"To my knowledge this player has something personal against me."

If you don't want enemies maybe don't call them a shit troll or call them irrelevant?

These comments were made emotionally. I FELT as tho someone was trying to troll me. If you try and put your self in the shoes of someone who FEELS THEY ARE BEING TROLLED then these comments are said from a defensive standpoint which is exactly how i meant them. Yes in hindsight slurring calling names etc is not a good thing but in the moment I naively thought it was the right thing to say.

Just to clarify also; I was not calling arizona@uswest.battle.net a shit troll (as in the builder), I was saying his attempt at TROLLING me was poor

Post by Burn » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:51 pm
EDIT:

Also looks like coco didn't build it, you did?

14:08 <Carlyb> 0x11: Point order: [o00X] (X: 288.0, Y: -10656.0, flags: 0x0004)

-Burn

I have addressed this in my first reply (please see above). In fact, I started the build of the arc two times to ensure there were no complications with the obvious language difficulties/missunderstandings between coco@useast.battle.net and I (the player does not understand/speak full english)

[Arizonaa]

I guess I'll post to defend myself since he's making a big deal out of this. From my perspective at the time he was building the arc, the base was mine as well which gave me the right to tk his arc.
(17:09 / Allied) Arizona: share with me
(17:12 / Allied) Arizona: or leave the base
(17:14 / Allied) Arizona: and i kill ur ar c
He also refused to share with me despite my warning that I would kill his arc.
I also had no knowledge that coco had built it for him until he says it at 18:35, but even then I had no way to know for sure as I didn't have access to the replay. I understand coco doesn't know much english, but I'm sure his understanding is enough to understand can mag arc, which I asked multiple times.
(17:41 / Allied) Arizona: coco can mag arc?
(18:05 / Allied) Arizona: coco can mag arc?
(18:42 / Allied) Arizona: only thing i will take as clear u being allowed
(18:43 / Allied) Carlyb: honestly
(18:45 / Allied) Arizona: is if i ask coco if u can arc
(18:46 / Allied) Arizona: and he says yes

then I finally got tired of him insulting me despite building an arc in what was partly my base and not sharing control
(22:14 / Allied) Arizona: okay ive had enough of ur toxicity
(22:18 / Allied) Arizona: u arc in my base
(22:19 / Allied) Arizona: dont share ctrl
then I tk his arc, which I believe I had the right to do as it was also my base.
Mag also even shared control with me shortly after proving that he knows that I was part owner of the base and had the rights to decide share ctrl/ if he can arc.

[Schnuts]

From my perspective at the time he was building the arc, the base was mine as well which gave me the right to tk his arc.

At the time of the construction of the arc you had 3 towers and 2 upgraded walls as apposed to makura essentially having full control over the reast of the base. From MY perspective, this was not a double base

He also refused to share with me despite my warning that I would kill his arc.

See above.

I also had no knowledge that coco had built it for him until he says it at 18:35

(14:26 / Allied) Carlyb: i shared w coco

(15:15 / Allied) Carlyb: dont tk
(15:18 / Allied) Carlyb: i shared w coco

then I finally got tired of him insulting me despite building an arc in what was partly my base and not sharing control

You had 7 structures 14.89% (yes i did the math) as aposed to makuras 47 structures (85.11%) at the time all of this was being asked. This does not take into consideration the fact that from my perspective i believed you were trying to troll me. Honestly given coco's passiveness when it comes to others building with him (which im sure you know about) it would not have surprised me if someone built solely with the intent of of trolling another person.

Mag also even shared control with me shortly after proving that he knows that I was part owner of the base and had the rights to decide share ctrl/ if he can arc.

Read above. This was not a double base before in my opinion (given coco). In any other circumstance where the other party could respond the situation would have been much clearer. After you added the remaining 12 towers it become obviously evident that it was a double base as coco did not object nor say anything to you building to which i shared

Note:

(22:56 / Allied) Carlyb: i dont want to share with you
(22:58 / Allied) Carlyb: bc i dont trust you

[Arizonaa]

I feel that counting the structures is a poor way to evaluate who's base it is.
1) As coco was in the base first, of course he would make the lumber base setup instead of me which adds many structures towards the count in the base.
2)Troll towers cost 2 food so while I had 3, it was equivalent to 6 normal towers, although it is still not that much
3) I had no reason to add more towers, It would be a waste of food and lumber to make more towers just to help me "claim" the base. When I felt more towers were needed, I added them.
Overall I would argue that the base became a double base the second I built my first towers as it was clear at that point that I was basing with coco and would help build more towers if necessary. I don't know why anyone would think I would just build 3 towers and stop there for the rest of the game.

Edit: Going to go to sleep, done posting on this ban request. I guess it's up to the mods to decide if I had the right to tk or not.

[Burn]

Arizona's perspective is this:

1) By coco not saying anything when arizona started building, it means they now have dual ownership of the base, which gets confusing when coco lets mag build, whilst arizona didn't want to let carly build.
2) Arizona didn't know coco gave carly consent, because he didn't see coco denying his own fruit trees
3) Arizona gave mag ample time to research his stuff
4) Arizona needs the space for building stuff since it's a small base
5) Arizona didn't like the mag's attitude, which is why he killed it (not saying it's a good reason either, just stating facts)
6) Mag could've been more polite which would've prevented all this.
7) Carly is saying that Arizona didn't have enough towers inside the base for him to have co-ownership of the base. But, Arizona has ARC + towers too, which mat mean he is there to stay.

Carly's perspective is:

1) Clearly coco helped him build arc and gave him permission because coco killed his own fruit trees and helped mag finish building the arc
2) Arizona could've just been nice, since one 3x3 can be spared until maybe later when titan started sieging.
3) Coco said "stop troll" before he tk'd, and "?" when he did, which arizona misconstrued as "stop trolling".

Coco's perspective is:

1) Let troll build with him
2) Let Mag build even though arizona is clearly saying he shouldn't (coco might not have understood it though)
3) ?Maybe? doesn't even think red is duo basing with him and thinks he still has full custody of base

So, bottom line is a few things:

One argument is that coco gave non-verbal permission but arizona didn't see it, but is still in the fault because coco said "stop troll" and arizona still continued to kill the ARC, and arizona misconstrued the "strop troll" with "stop trolling".

One argument is that it was all a misunderstanding, Arizona has ownership of the base and Coco shouldn't have let the mag build the ARC even though arizona had co-ownership of the base and is telling mag not to base, but it may not be obvious to Coco because his english is bad. (the misunderstandings argument)

Also two more separate things that isn't that relevant to the BRQ unless penn/arizona posts a BRQ:

Spoiler!

Carly didn't leave base or share controls even when arizona asked him to.

Penn is saying Carly denied his RC, but Carly is saying it was blocking, but still wouldn't mind receiving a ban for this? Didn't review this part of the replay.

I am talking with osug atm and I think we have decided with a warning for both players to just behave themselves better, since rules are not very clear with how ownership of the base is decided, and arizona's ignorance of whether or not coco gave permission during the game. It also poses a few questions: Does the base now also belong to Arizona just because he built a few towers + ARC with no objections from coco? Is Arizona just messing around and trying to grief mag by circumventing coco's ability to speak English? Does coco also have fault because he let Mag ARC even with troll not saying mag should build?

-Burn

[Merex]

Not sure why this was made a big deal. Troll practically welcomes himself in the base and calls it part of his base which is just wrong. There's plenty of instances in the chatlog even where mak stated (although vague) that it's fine for mag to arc, and being that this wasn't a pre-planned DB, it's fully within the authority of coco (original base owner).

Arizona => Banned.