Feature Suggestions / Changes

[dlNO]

I do not remember why I posted. sos

[GunTroll]

What's imbalanced or what can be exploited the way it stands now?

I would say that its not possible to counter it as a builder.

[BeeKauzh]

I would say that its possible to counter by simply not putting your builder near nukeable workers.

[dlNO]

There has to be a high skill ceiling for Island Defense to grow, otherwise players will just quit when they reach a certain skill and the game gets boring, just look at all the good people who can't be bothered to play consistently anymore. Players should be encouraged to increase their skill level, and there should always be room for players to increase their skill. Tryharding should be rewarding.

Counter-Strike (1999), Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (2012)
Halo: Combat Evolved (2001), Halo 2 (2004), Halo 5: Guardians (2015)
Call of Duty (2003), Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (2007), Call of Duty: Black Ops III (2015)
All three franchises have been popular from over a decade ago, and are still popular across the globe of today.
Each of these franchises are a clear example that contradicts @Lynx . Lynx wrote, "there should always be room for players to increase their skill" But, an ever changing, "skill level" will not lead to growth in player-base. In fact, many critics have raved, about how game franchises release games that show minimal growth or variation in gameplay from their predecessors, How games are being remade with but slight graphic enhancements, but atrocious price tags ranging from $50 game discs, to $500 game consoles are tagged on these, duplicates, and yet many people DO purchase them.
Its not that there isn't evidence that supports @Lynx, such as the Dota and LoL franchises. Where graphics are not being enhanced, but more heroes or champions are being added, increasing the complexity of the Tournament Draft. The depth of the skill level increasing, and still maintaining a large global populace. Supporting Lynx's claim.
A number of games remain popular today, some simply enhance their graphics, other further the complexity of their competitive play. The fact that both manage to entice thousands shows that neither is the fundamental reason for the success of video games. History of many other franchises failing, following the same frame furthers my case.
Simply increasing the complexity of the game will not in turn lead to an increase of the Island Defense player base.

P.S. All in all, I wish to encourage the editors not to trash the game to satisfy a singular, or couple, of player(s). (b4 I forget why I wrote this)

[ShadowZz]

Another point all of those games have in common from the call of duty side to even the dota 2 side is that when you get beaten by a tactic, you can simply go and start another game and do that tactic yourself. For example if you lose a game to a faceless void ulti stopping you doing anything all game you can simply pick void and do it yourself, the game will still be based on your skill but none the less you have the ability to try it out. Likewise in call of duty or csgo if you die to a particular gun you can simply choose that gun next game and try it yourself.

The problem with ID is when you die to a titan due to something like fog nuking (or anything really), you can't simply pick titan and go and pull off a fog nuke. There is no reciprocation of usability between tactics. No one enjoys dying to something and not being able to do it themselves due to some huge skill gap or exploit.

[Merex]

Off topic:
That moment when Warcraft III Island Defense is compared to call of duty.

[ShadowZz]

It's a comparison of consumer motive and personal choice. It's like comparing what urges a buyer to enjoy comfort in a family van or a bugatti veyron. Comparing any games due to their consumer motive to play/enjoy them is perfectly fine...

[Lynx]

So if a new game doesn't add content there is no room for improvement? The original content had enough depth and complexion. Especially for FPS games which are "reaction" games, which offers endless room for improvement with just that one thing (a player that shoots with 50ms brain delay is going to be better than a player that shoots with a 100ms brain delay).

If you compare this to strategy games like SC2 DotA2 LoL, aren't much focused on speed and have more focus on micromanagement and strategy. To a certain extent they lack the same endless room for improvement and needs to compensate this by having an endless amount of different strategies available.

Island Defense lacks both of the two previous named endless room for improvements. Island Defense is static. Every known wall formation is known. The most efficient titan item builds are known. The best way to reduce feed is known. The best way to find feed is known. There is no form of endless improvement in Island Defense, once you've played a set amount of hours, there is no more left to do. What Island Defense needs is a search for an opportunity for endless improvement.

Personal thoughts:

What kept me playing in 3.0.9d was perfecting skills like speed poking, wallwalking, itemjumping, speedbasebuilding, baseformations, chimaera scouting, burrowjumping, syphsummonblocking, searching for optimal titan build etcetc. some of these features were removed and some remain. My point is, a lot of the things i found enjoyable were the most complex ones. We all love to learn. Haven't you all thought once about a game "damn I wish I could forget everything I knew about this game so I could learn everything again"? I certainly have that, and if I were to lose all my memories with Island Defense and play again, it's doubtful I'd be hooked. For what it's worth, I think Island Defense has lost it's appeal.

[ShadowZz]

I agree Island Defense has lost it's appeal to long term players. But all that knowledge you have @Lynx has literally taken years of playing, thousands of games and thousands upon thousands of hours. To be honest I'd be surprised if any game kept you entertained with "new" things to do after that amount of time let alone one that isn't "competitive" in nature (no ranking etc). I feel like we have all played this game a very long time and people sometimes lose scope that while it may be "boring" for us oldies, it's taken a very long time for it to get to that point. For me Island Defense already fulfills the goal of sustainability allowing for 1000+ games without knowing everything. At some point it is expected that people will simply lose interest but if that is 4+ years after they first start playing then it's perfectly fine by me. I hope you get what I mean.

Just to reiterate: The main reason why everything is known is because all of the players know each other and are super long term players. Newer players still enjoy the learning curve and personally watching my partner learn the game from scratch has been very eye-opening as to how long it actually takes to learn ID properly for players of all skills.

[Lynx]

Should Island Defense cater to loyal long term players or the minority influx of new player?

I don't think it has something to do at all with me playing for a long time. For some reason I'd happily play 3.0.9d until the end of time, but it's just not the same with 4.0.0 . Many* agree with me too, it's just not the same appeal.

*pongu, nate-, sunplusmoonie, hotsauce2k, tek280, lil_f.e.a.r, bloodyguy, metall_drago,

[ShadowZz]

ID for warcraft has died, a fact I have come to live with. Standalone will cater as it does now for short-long but not for 6+ years players :/ Hard to keep something "new" for that long + probably exceptionally annoying for some to never be able to be 100% uber pro

As for the 3.0.9d stuff I'd argue that it's simply your opinion and preference rather than something majorly different with the learning of ID :/

[dlNO]

So if a new game doesn't add content there is no room for improvement?[/i]

@lynx
I'm assuming this is towards me, and to clarify, I did not hover this topic in my previous post.
I believe you misinterpreted, no, misread my post. I simply brought up the fact that many critics continue to rave on about franchises. Franchises that remake games with but slight graphic modifications, yet people still spend ridiculous amounts of money on it. I made no concrete comments on what I believe the factors are for success of the listed FPS game franchises.

Besides the fact that I skipped this topic in my previous post, I will now state that I agree with you. FPS do heavily rely on dexterity, and the journey to improve your own "speed" can be evidence to support your earlier claim.

There has to be a high skill ceiling for Island Defense to grow, otherwise players will just quit when they reach a certain skill and the game gets boring,

The ceiling being your speed, and you can forever improve or maintain your skill level to avoid that "quit when they reach a certain skill level".

So to maintain a clean healthy environment, I will reestablish the original point of this argument.

Showerthought:

Create cheap efficient items for builder that give various temporary buffs like, movespeed, attackspeed, armor, damage etc. And when I say cheap I mean cheap as in around 200 lumber wotw.

Trade off?

Titan can instantly remove the effects with punish.

Items can also be like unit summons instead of buffs, and the units instantly die if they are targeted by punish.

Obviously abilities like panic would not be able to be punishable.

Your goals with this, "Showerthought" of yours @Lynx, is to further the skill level of Island Defense, to invite your friends, who you find have mastered the game and left out of boredom, to return to Island Defense? If I am correct, please elaborate on how exactly this thought of yours will specifically make Island Defense more difficult and challenging.

P.S. Btw if you do post that you agree with my claims, then I may not reply. I doubt that any one of your listed friends are powerful enough to single handedly revitalize WC3 Island Defense, your lust to entertain a handful of friends is a goal we do not share.

[Lynx]

I did not misinterpret/misread. You were saying there was no depth for improvement in those games since the new updates only added graphic changes, I said there certainly was depth in the original content, so they don't need to add more depth every sequel since the level of depth is already sufficient.

What speed is there to improve in Island Defense? It is capped at builder movespeed, it is restricted by shift-queuing. The level of depth and complexity in Island Defense is shallow, compared to what it could be and what it has been before.

My goal is to increase the skill level in Island Defense so I can find it enjoying to play. This has nothing to do with my friends returning. I just stated exactly which players agreed with me since "many" can be pretty loose.

Is it not obvious how it will make Island Defense more complex? Added item progression for builders, and the titan is given an opportunity to counter it with increasing his micro management.

______________________________

Read your post again and let me emphasize that I am not trying to make any of my friends return or to change the game so they would want to return. Sure I wouldn't mind if they did, but it's nothing I strive for. I'm suggesting to make this game more enjoyable for me, and this will probably make the game more enjoyable for everyone else too.

[ShadowZz]

I'm staying out of whatever the fps convo is FYI but *munch* *munch* *popcorn*
@Lynx
Going to simply number the statements so you don't have to quote it one after the other because let's be honest, it's a pain in the ass and it's very cluttered and creates ginormous posts If you just number the replies as per the statements it might be easier to reply, let's just test a theory .

Notes are attached to try and shorten the conversation or reply to things I'm assuming may be brought up or to add reasoning to the question.

Out of curiosity:
1.Two of the arguably most popular games on the market right now are League of Legends and Dota 2.
-especially on twitch etc.
-Don't really want this statement to turn into a statistics conversation about whether they are popular etc (let's just assume they are ).

2.I'm guessing you would agree that both these games don't have this "limit" you think Island Defense does right?
-Assuming this due to professional players still learning strategy and meta changes and no game ever being exactly the same.

3.Don't ID games have the same quality whereby no game is ever the exact same?
-I'm talking exact same. Not a close representation.

4.Aren't these games by your statement also capped to exactly the same constrictions as what you believe Island Defense is?
-Mainly addressing move speed and the fact that you are stuck to a move speed in both of those games also.

5.I can completely agree with more item choices for both builders and titans (seriously I've said this like 30 times ). But wouldn't this leave us exactly where we are right now in a years time?
-You would have learned everything about the items and would yet again be bored and have completed "everything there is to do", thus we would be back here again having this conversation.

6.If you agree with the fourth statement then doesn't it stand true that there is arguably no more micro-management in LoL or Dota2 as their is in ID?
-I'm talking about a good player actively playing the game.
-Titan's with more than one minion actively micro all their units at all times and allows them to gain advantages.
-Likewise watching an old friend play ID back in the day and micro each minion to a separate wall whilst sieging or mass nuking/healing at around 200APM would say different.
-----Side-Note to this one-----If this actually did happen then the builders additions would have to be down to micro management too otherwise titans who are average without great micro would simply lose to average builders without great micro due to this increasing the titan skill cap yet again. I don't mind high skill plays for titan which counter builders but those should be there to counter high skill, high micro plays that the builders make. Otherwise adding it means that top tier titans go unaffected due to them already being able to micro and average titans simply get shitter because they can't deal with it. Likewise keep in mind that a lot of people will simply play ID for fun or casually and simply don't care about "high micro plays". In addition to that the people who do care realistically end up being the minority. I'm not saying I don't like the idea, I'm just saying it needs scope. Hope we can agree on that.

Edit: Grammar. Clarity.

[dlNO]

topic 1
The first quarrel that came to my mind, is that this suggestion is very slutty, as in it could be entered in many games.
EX: In DOTA, you could give all heroes an innate tiny weak spell that could be "punished off". By giving each player a 1000 hp punish cage in their base that has punish at 0 cd, so it be killed like a RAX, the enemy building you destroy to make your own creeps stronger.
It is true that in both DOTA and ID, this type of edit would increase the "skill level", though the conduct at which it does is very uncool. It is so simple that you as well just ask all players to click a hotkey "Z" periodically.
Another comparison to help establish my point would be arcade games like Street Fighter, where you memorize these 20 button combos. Meanwhile in games of today, its a single mouse click=gun shot, or hotkey+mouse click=magical spell. In theory you could follow Street Fighter's example of long tedious combos, in turn increasing the difficulty, though its very tedious. Tandem to asking players to periodically click a certain hotkey for god knows what reason. Except in this Street Fighter case it would be every time you want to shoot a bullet, you don't just aim +1 click, its would be aim +20 clicks.

topic 2
I already agreed with you Lynx, I just never literally said "there was no depth for improvement in those games". I simply wanted to point out that multiple franchises make slight cosmetic changes and people spend ridiculous amounts of money on it. Like paying millions for a piece of art work like the Mona Lisa. But to clarify, you are correct, it is true that in my specific example, CS and COD, the art work changes revolve around a game that involves dexterity, a trait or skill that can be, forever toyed with. But again, to clarify, I never said that the games did not have this dexterity trait, and simply pointed out that ART is a column of its own, in terms of millions of dollars are spent on it just to stare at some scribbles. I just attempted to establish the point that millions of dollars have been spent on art, paintings, sculptures, and now a days, the same exact game with one or two new cool looking gun(s). Ex. CS:GO weapon cases and keys. $1000 knife skins or DOTA cosmetic avatars. Indeed, these specific cosmetics examples can be enjoyed inside a game where dexterity is involved.