Balance Suggestions

[Burn]

It's mainly for new players, since Island Defense doesn't have a tutorial.

EDIT: More suggestions:

EITHER/OR:

-Mana pool upgrades are now available to all builders for 250W for each mana upgrade (similar to mag/morph upgrades), up to 10 upgrades (except draenei)
-Mana cost available for all hunters too, for 250W for each mana upgrade, up to 10 stackable upgrades.
-Mana cost on all escape abilities are now removed. (except faerie and hunters)

Generally speaking, mana upgrades doesn't really make a builder OP, it just makes the game more fun for builders to play without worrying about losing all your mana and not being able to cast the important spells.

EDIT2: More suggestions:

-Make all truesight abilities cost gold. No exceptions. Make it researchable in RC:
-Sacrifice cost (5G 250W)
-Gnoll's Sentry cost (5G 250W)

Explanation for suggestion: Truesight in Island Defense is OP AS FUCK. You can easily get rid of floaters, detect titan WW, etc.

EDIT3:
To further nerf Demo, I think Nether is far too OP right now. It's basically the most OP escape ability in the game. It needs to have a cooldown nerf to 360s cooldown.

To make sure Demo isn't trash-tier, we can give him more nether spots and get rid of the nether spot at mid (actualy i think it was removed)

Also, make doubles cost 3000w again.

Also, make demo summons feed as much as merchant stone throwers.

-Burn

[Burn]

Off topic:
This post has been moved from the 0101 discussion thread. - Neco

Well, I mean. to be brutally honest, it is shitty atm, it has desyncs - which isn't even the biggest problem. It is incredibly unbalanced and you refuse to let us balance it. But we can improve it if you let us.

Here's a start:

Nerfs:

Pirate (Too strong towers, OP hunter - Nerf hunter's range by one half and lower DPS on towers by 5% and all will be well)
Demo (OP spider, prevents wotw kills, prevents WW kills - Nerf spider to only have a 15% chance to slow instead of 100% slow, make sac cost gold)
Radio (others can buy gold towers for him - No idea how to fix this, might need to make it so that team-mates are unable to buy anything from Radio's RC, not even scales)
Tauren (Towers too strong and magic resist too strong - Nerf super towers by 15 damage and make magic resist an upgrade that costs gold)
Mag (Walls too strong - Make it so that you require merchant and ARC for arctic walls and wall HP upgrades further than 500HP)
Gnoll (Slow too OP in in-houses &True sight too strong - needs to be an upgrade that costs wood/gold, towers need a chance to slow nerf to make it only 4% chance to slow the titan with a 1s duration)
Ogre (Bloodlust too strong - Make duration 5s and make it so it's free/default, no need to research)
New mode called -LXP which reverts XP system to 3.0.9d XP system.
Nerfed the range on all 1x1 or flying ranged hunters by exactly one half (goblin/pirate/dryad/goblin)
Bubonicus' heal cooldown increased to 9s.
Bubonicus' nuke now requires cast time like 3.0.9d instead of being instant.
Troll voodoo duration reduced to the same as the cooldown.

Buffs:

Pirate's WW gives 20% more move speed from before.
Ogre's bloodlust nerfed to 5s duration, but requires no upgrade to obtain, you have it from the start of the game.
Gnoll/Murloc/Makrura's TP cooldown reduced to 240s.
Titan minions increased move speed back to 3.0.9d move speeds.
Titan minions now start at lvl 3.
Demo walls now feed the same EXP amount as upgraded Mag walls.
Morphling towers now have the same DPS as pirate towers.
Tauren's Demolisher tower increased DPS by 200%.
Demonicus' shade now has flying vision.
Makrura towers increased by 5 damage on all levels.
Murloc towers are increased by 5 damage on all levels.
Draenei/Tauren/Morphling/Demo Advanced research center lumber cost reduced to 1250W.

-Burn

[Neco]

Isn't that what I'm doing right now with a balance patch? It's a beta, it's not supposed to be 100% polished...

There's a "-nolightning" command in this version to hopefully combat desync. I've check my own code many times and there's nothing there to cause it so it's either a library or the 250ms -> 100ms tick time from ENT bots causing it.

I agree to everything in the above post apart from Ogre's Bloodlust changes, and Minions starting at level 3.

[Burn]

That's a great start Neco.

I can accept that minions starting at level 3 would be a controversial change, so I'll avoid talking about it, even though I still stick by it.

For Ogre: Just curious, is it because you think that bloodlust is not OP atm? Because I can easily meet you halfway with any number tweaks you deem fit after some negotiations.

-Burn

[Neco]

For Ogre: Just curious, is it because you think that bloodlust is not OP atm? Because I can easily meet you halfway with any number tweaks you deem fit after some negotiations.

It is OP at the moment, but removing the fact that it is gated by gold is too much of a buff even with the duration nerf in my opinion.

[Burn]

You can nerf it however you want. Here's my explanation on why I made the Ogre suggestion like that:

Since we both agree it is OP atm, I won't explain why he needs a nerf.
Ogre's duration to 5s means it is easily countered by a WOTW. This is a significant nerf. It essentially renders fart/BL combo useless.

My theory to counter wotw after this nerf would be worker deto or using bloodlust without fart, then farting only after WOTW has been used, or a few seconds have passed, enough that you are confident that titan will not WOTW, and you have walked far enough that you think you can make it to fog before using fart. This is not a very good counter, obviously worker deto is still #1.

The QoL (quality of life) buff of removing the research for bloodlust means it will be more fun to play Ogre, especially against titans who don't WOTW and making worker deto more essential against decent titans, increasing skill required to master the builder, micro-management skills, and more early worker feed for a decent titan, against players who feed the workers at mid.

This means that the nerf will actually make the builder more fun to play by giving it a non-OP but game-changing buff, which is something that would be optimal for every future nerf.

-Burn

[ShadowZz]

Off topic:
This post has been moved from the 0101 discussion thread. - Neco

Well, I mean. to be brutally honest, it is shitty atm, it has desyncs - which isn't even the biggest problem. It is incredibly unbalanced and you refuse to let us balance it. But we can improve it if you let us.

Here's a start:

Nerfs:

Pirate (Too strong towers, OP hunter - Nerf hunter's range by one half and lower DPS on towers by 5% and all will be well)
Demo (OP spider, prevents wotw kills, prevents WW kills - Nerf spider to only have a 15% chance to slow instead of 100% slow, make sac cost gold)
Radio (others can buy gold towers for him - No idea how to fix this, might need to make it so that team-mates are unable to buy anything from Radio's RC, not even scales)
Tauren (Towers too strong and magic resist too strong - Nerf super towers by 15 damage and make magic resist an upgrade that costs gold)
Mag (Walls too strong - Make it so that you require merchant and ARC for arctic walls and wall HP upgrades further than 500HP)
Gnoll (Slow too OP in in-houses &True sight too strong - needs to be an upgrade that costs wood/gold, towers need a chance to slow nerf to make it only 4% chance to slow the titan with a 1s duration)
Ogre (Bloodlust too strong - Make duration 5s and make it so it's free/default, no need to research)
New mode called -LXP which reverts XP system to 3.0.9d XP system.
Nerfed the range on all 1x1 or flying ranged hunters by exactly one half (goblin/pirate/dryad/goblin)
Bubonicus' heal cooldown increased to 9s.
Bubonicus' nuke now requires cast time like 3.0.9d instead of being instant.
Troll voodoo duration reduced to the same as the cooldown.

Buffs:

Pirate's WW gives 20% more move speed from before.
Ogre's bloodlust nerfed to 5s duration, but requires no upgrade to obtain, you have it from the start of the game.
Gnoll/Murloc/Makrura's TP cooldown reduced to 240s.
Titan minions increased move speed back to 3.0.9d move speeds.
Titan minions now start at lvl 3.
Demo walls now feed the same EXP amount as upgraded Mag walls.
Morphling towers now have the same DPS as pirate towers.
Tauren's Demolisher tower increased DPS by 200%.
Demonicus' shade now has flying vision.
Makrura towers increased by 5 damage on all levels.
Murloc towers are increased by 5 damage on all levels.
Draenei/Tauren/Morphling/Demo Advanced research center lumber cost reduced to 1250W.

-Burn

I agree with most of these changes as well. Just a few points I'd like to say:

Nerfs:

Pirate - Hunter's needs nerf but should probably be integrated slowly by reducing it by a 3/4 instead of a half to see how it fairs. I can understand how op the hunter is right now though.
Love the arachnid random chance to slow but would prefer it with PRNG rather than RNG (already discussed).
Mag - Maybe just incrementing the wall upgrades a bit like demos would be better - 1st upg, 5g 500w - 2nd upg, 10g 1000w - 3rd upg, 15g 1500w - 4th upg, 20g 2000w. Harder to get wall upgrades but better for progression throughout game.
I'd say bubo's heal could easily go up to 12 secs but it's just figures so meh
Demo summons feeding small amounts of EXP. I'm not saying a lot but enough that if demo summons 3 times on a lvl 3 minion he atleast gets level 4 for surviving


Buffs:

I know it's super controversial but I do agree that buffing minions to lvl 3 when they spawn would be a good thing. Allows them to be more versatile if you need to siege early bases or gives people with good micro-management the chance to start dealing with pesky seeders
Agree with the rest.
Titan items being evaluated in general. More versatility, more options. Becomes standard for a lot of people to just go wards/le/gor/aof, you get the jist.....

Edit: Buffs: Titan spawning with a pearl.

[Lynx]

Can you archive this post and make a new 0102 balance suggestion thread with the top post being the changes made from 0100 to 0101 and then just continue from the new 0102 suggestions in this thread.

All to make it clearer.

@Neco

[narbtit]

I am really not sure about that level 3 mini. Titan can have 2 lvl 2 nukes at that point no? I guess its fine if it needs a buff but people will have to learn to stay out of nuke maybe fast.

@neco edit: also I would like to suggest that we open coding to more people. Neco if there are enthusiastic people on this forum that volunteer for coding maybe you make them a coder somehow, like notyacapo? Give them a small subset of code to work on or whatnot. I'm just saying it seems like there is a big job in front of you always, and you are the only one working on it.

[lordmillt]

oh no, not RNGesus in ID, i already is the unluckest guy ever. You just wanna know, im losing Are you lucky all the time.. same with hearthstone due to RNGesus hates me, inc 1 in 1000000000 ill get it slowed

[Burn]

I also do not like RNG, we can change anything percentage based into hit after X number of hits, or something like that, and have a buff to show how many hits until you will land the hit.

-Burn

[Neco]

Please keep in mind there are technical limitations and things such as buffs changing to show how many hits until an effect happens are not always
feasible.

[Burn]

Spoiler!

Code: Select all

[offtopic]This post has been moved from the 0101 discussion thread. - Neco[/offtopic]Well, I mean. to be brutally honest, it is shitty atm, it has desyncs - which isn't even the biggest problem. It is incredibly unbalanced and you refuse to let us balance it. But we can improve it if you let us.

Here's a start:

Nerfs:

Pirate (Too strong towers, OP hunter - Nerf hunter's range by one half and lower DPS on towers by 5% and all will be well)
Demo (OP spider, prevents wotw kills, prevents WW kills - Nerf spider to only have a 15% chance to slow instead of 100% slow, make sac cost gold)
Radio (others can buy gold towers for him - No idea how to fix this, might need to make it so that team-mates are unable to buy anything from Radio's RC, not even scales)
Tauren (Towers too strong and magic resist too strong - Nerf super towers by 15 damage and make magic resist an upgrade that costs gold)
Mag (Walls too strong - Make it so that you require merchant and ARC for arctic walls and wall HP upgrades further than 500HP)
Gnoll (Slow too OP in in-houses &True sight too strong - needs to be an upgrade that costs wood/gold, towers need a chance to slow nerf to make it only 4% chance to slow the titan with a 1s duration)
Ogre (Bloodlust too strong - Make duration 5s and make it so it's free/default, no need to research)
New mode called -LXP which reverts XP system to 3.0.9d XP system.
Nerfed the range on all 1x1 or flying ranged hunters by exactly one half (goblin/pirate/dryad/goblin)
Bubonicus' heal cooldown increased to 9s.
Bubonicus' nuke now requires cast time like 3.0.9d instead of being instant.
Troll voodoo duration reduced to the same as the cooldown.

Buffs:

Pirate's WW gives 20% more move speed from before.
Ogre's bloodlust nerfed to 5s duration, but requires no upgrade to obtain, you have it from the start of the game.
Gnoll/Murloc/Makrura's TP cooldown reduced to 240s.
Titan minions increased move speed back to 3.0.9d move speeds.
Titan minions now start at lvl 3.
Demo walls now feed the same EXP amount as upgraded Mag walls.
Morphling towers now have the same DPS as pirate towers.
Tauren's Demolisher tower increased DPS by 200%.
Demonicus' shade now has flying vision.
Makrura towers increased by 5 damage on all levels.
Murloc towers are increased by 5 damage on all levels.
Draenei/Tauren/Morphling/Demo Advanced research center lumber cost reduced to 1250W.

-Burn

I agree with most of these changes as well. Just a few points I'd like to say:

Nerfs:

Pirate - Hunter's needs nerf but should probably be integrated slowly by reducing it by a 3/4 instead of a half to see how it fairs. I can understand how op the hunter is right now though.
Love the arachnid random chance to slow but would prefer it with PRNG rather than RNG (already discussed).
Mag - Maybe just incrementing the wall upgrades a bit like demos would be better - 1st upg, 5g 500w - 2nd upg, 10g 1000w - 3rd upg, 15g 1500w - 4th upg, 20g 2000w. Harder to get wall upgrades but better for progression throughout game.
I'd say bubo's heal could easily go up to 12 secs but it's just figures so meh
Demo summons feeding small amounts of EXP. I'm not saying a lot but enough that if demo summons 3 times on a lvl 3 minion he atleast gets level 4 for surviving


Buffs:

I know it's super controversial but I do agree that buffing minions to lvl 3 when they spawn would be a good thing. Allows them to be more versatile if you need to siege early bases or gives people with good micro-management the chance to start dealing with pesky seeders
Agree with the rest.
Titan items being evaluated in general. More versatility, more options. Becomes standard for a lot of people to just go wards/le/gor/aof, you get the jist.....

Edit: Buffs: Titan spawning with a pearl.

Agreed with all of your suggestions except Mag walls.

Either cost gold like 5g per 50HP upgrade, 1g per arctic wall or require merchant for arctics, or require a 25G research upgrade in the ARC for arctic walls, because Magnataur basically has a surplus of wood after around 20mins. Also, Magnataur basically has little to no benefits from getting merchant over ARC, as he doesn't need it at all except for merch summons. By requiring Merch instead of ARC for arctic walls means that Mag has a reason to get merch. again like 3.0.9d.

-Burn

[Burn]

Please keep in mind there are technical limitations and things such as buffs changing to show how many hits until an effect happens are not always
feasible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqQTwP_ngBA
I'll settle for something like this, Tauren will stack charges on the enemy and stun every 3 charges. Obviously, first hit will not be a stun.


-Burn

[Neco]

Bash (Tauren's stun) already has pseudo-RNG in it. Things such as evasion does not (and can not).