Balance Suggestions

[Lynx]

Games never gonna go back to -ap. It's broken and unbalance-able. Not even having another conversation about the EXP system....

rofl what? we gave you evidence that you completely ignored.

[Burn]

I'm so glad Haunt won't be the next developer after Neco, because neither plays any games of ID, like, ever.

There aren't that many bug fixes high in the priority any more, Neco has been doing a good job at that. Balances/new implementations, on the other hand...

-Burn

[ShadowZz]

@Lynx Please stop quoting my posts for your drama.

@Burn Whilst I agree with you that neither plays ID much, this has already been discussed before and just to reiterate: You do not need to play a game to balance it or be a developer. Even @art)Y has posted that to these kinds of flame multiple times. You probably won't believe me but there is a very high number of game developers who don't play their own games....

To be honest ID is reaching a point where it could have a long term consistent version for the time being. Letting everyone get used to a version with minor adjustments might be better for the game than trying to add in outdated content for the sake of "it used to be in the game" - satyr, huntress, panda etc.

[Haunt]

Off topic:
Oh Burn, I don't know what's going to happen with my life but one thing is sure, and that is that I will never be developing a game. I can't be arsed to go all the trouble just to have people whining constantly because their ideals don't match with the game.

[Lynx]

@Lynx Please stop quoting my posts for your drama.

nice dodge. Arguing is not drama.

@Burn Whilst I agree with you that neither plays ID much, this has already been discussed before and just to reiterate: You do not need to play a game to balance it or be a developer. Even @art)Y has posted that to these kinds of flame multiple times. You probably won't believe me but there is a very high number of game developers who don't play their own games....

Develop it? Yes. Balance it? No.

To be honest ID is reaching a point where it could have a long term consistent version for the time being. Letting everyone get used to a version with minor adjustments might be better for the game than trying to add in outdated content for the sake of "it used to be in the game" - satyr, huntress, panda etc.

No it certainly isn't. The version runs smoothly, I'll give you that, but it is far from being timeless.

I can't be arsed to go all the trouble just to have people whining constantly because their ideals don't match with the game.

To be honest I don't give a shit about features and all that anymore. All I want is the game to be balanced.

Now please can you all stop seeing this as a war between (apparently) me and burn vs neco, shadowzz and haunt? We're all just boys trying to enjoy ourselves.

[Burn]

Developers require analysts who are very experienced at the game. Analysts in DotA2 both play the game in pubs and watch competitive games to determine what to balance. No-one knows who icefrog is, but I'm guessing he's a master analyst. Then they have reddit, which helps give QoL suggestions and youtube and dota2dev, which provide game breaking bugs.

I'm not sure what games you are playing but I'm very confident that most developers in decent games at least have their priorities straight.

I don't normally read your posts shadowzz let alone reply to them, but I'll give you this one because I've never made this point clear.

Side note: Fixing -up for high ping users is also a balance issue because shit is unbalanced when you can't get any fun builders to play in the limited builder pool.

-Burn

[Stealer]

I'm not too sure why not being able to play 'fun' builders is game breaking...

Generally the 'unfun' strategies are the ones that are stronger (eb-euro / etc) especially when compared to the fun ones (orc-style builders).

Pub games aren't known for their balance anyways and afaik ih always uses br at minimum so -up isn't even in effect. But if you're using -up in ih games you could coordinate who picks what.

tbh shouldn't bother neco with dumb shit like -up/evasion vs block and let him focus on legit important things like balance.

Exp system is legit complaint but you can't just go qq neco fix exp. Have to say shit like 'walls feed too much; titans just sit at mound at hit 16'.


--
Also obligatorily
@haunt why is this in vouched?

[Burn]

I've tried, stealer, I've tried. You can't even imagine how hard I've been pushing this EXP system nerf.

Island Defense is boring af if you're forced to pick boring builders tho.

-Burn

[ShadowZz]

@Lynx You have been told to test it yourself and then when you finally agreed to you fucked it up. If you're looking for Confirmation Bias I don't think you need to look further than you're own posts. We are not discussing anything because I've simply stopped caring about your opinion. So there's no reason to directly quote me on every single post I ever make. I don't need nor want your bullshit.

@Stealer Walls feed exactly the same amounts in 3.0.9d and 4.0.0. Pretty much agree with everything you said but just to make a point on this. The goblin evasion being changed was more for balance than QoL.

@Burn Just a simple question. Titans win rate is 34% as of right now. It's changed by around 1%. Titans are not simply winning every game they play. The game is not all of a sudden one sided. Good titans still have bad win rates vs pub lobbys. Do you think that this is something that is unbalancing in the game or simply something that is different to what you are used to? The only reason I ask this is because surely if titans are not all of a sudden winning games the only reason you would notice such a thing is because you are not used to it? Unless you're saying that you are winning every titan game you play right now in which case this would be reflected in more than 1% of titan wins changing right?

[lordmillt]

Um about the winrate of titans, its because people quadbase which is kinda hard to beat these days. Anything we can change about quadbases? Plox and please people u guys stop draggin about 3.0.9d, makin me mad, 400 isnt 309 last time i checked and if u wanna play 309 thers a host bot on ent thanks. To topic; Up is a good thing so theres no 3 demos in same game or taurens etc and that way people play other builders to get used with builders they dont usally play and can see if they can get buffs/nerfs/changes...

Offtopic; less drama and u know ehat people im tellin it to, drama in a balance topic doesnt make sense and then in the end. @lynx you know shadowzz doesnt want ur BS so please stop talkin to him or answer his topics same to shadowzz in this case thanks.

[Lynx]

Of course it is logical to bring up 3.0.9d as it was the latest balanced version of the game and it should stand as a point of reference.

Very few games I play result in a tie until the end, most games I've played end in a one-way stomp depending on if the titan manages to get a minion pre 5 minutes or not. That is why I'm arguing to further balance the game. Let's be serious guys, you all must experience this too. Either the titan dies and it's "gg ez ng lololol" spam in chat or it's the classic "gg tit mh rq". When was the last time you played an epic one hour long game trying as hard as you could to try to win the game trying to re-wall, workerblock and focus fire all at the same time? For me those moments have been scarce. Do tell me otherwise if you've experienced otherwise.

The winrate of 34% I think is a result of this "one-way stomping", 1/3 of the games Titan manages to get an early minion and the other 2/3 he doesn't. Of course I can only guess, but I'd say the numbers are probably accurate. Look at my post here and see why we can't have a 50% win rate between builders and titans since the mean builder skill will be higher than the mean titan skill.

@Lynx You have been told to test it yourself and then when you finally agreed to you fucked it up.

Here are some of the things you've ignored:

3.0.9d starting feed reduction is 90% for arachnid, I assume it's same for the rest of the builders. 110% for Magnataur so I assume it's the same for the rest of the supports. 4.0.0 starting feed reduction was scattered between 105% to 115%.

Experience sharing is insane.

Builder leaves will increase the exp gain.

The game is not all of a sudden one sided.

It can still be onesided even if the win rate is 34%.

Good titans still have bad win rates vs pub lobbys.

There are no good titans left ever since tnfu stopped playing. And because you think these "good" titans are worthy of winning more is no valid reason to keeping the game unbalanced.

_____________________________________________________________________________

If you're looking for Confirmation Bias I don't think you need to look further than you're own posts. We are not discussing anything because I've simply stopped caring about your opinion. So there's no reason to directly quote me on every single post I ever make. I don't need nor want your bullshit.

Offtopic; less drama and u know ehat people im tellin it to, drama in a balance topic doesnt make sense and then in the end. @lynx you know shadowzz doesnt want ur BS so please stop talkin to him or answer his topics same to shadowzz in this case thanks.

Drama does indeed not make any sense. Nor does dodging discussion. Whether or not you care about my opinion does not make my opinion less valid. Would appreciate it if you two kids would start using your brains.

Off topic:
holy shit this forum layout is so bad for discussion

[Haunt]

@haunt why is this in vouched?

huh?

btw, if you edit @ to your post, I don't get PM

When was the last time you played an epic one hour long game trying as hard as you could to try to win the game trying to re-wall, workerblock and focus fire all at the same time? For me those moments have been scarce. Do tell me otherwise if you've experienced otherwise.

I've had few games like that. Or I would have but since I stop caring about the game result after 40min it never goes that far

But I'm sure if you or Burn or some other win-by-all-means minded person was in the game, that had happened

[Stealer]

I don't think in any of the 1h games I watched (5 were played yesterday) Titan was able to break any of the last 4 walls in the last base.

34% w/r doesn't mean much depending on the people. A lot of the Titans I see are pure bobs.

[Merex]

Off topic:
Lynx- and ShadowZz still argue? Get a room already.

[Burn]

Yes, it has happened, like 1% of my games. So one out of 100 games I get one of those 40 min+ decent games. Otherwise it's 99% mainly stall.

Around one in 10 games I get a decent game worth tryharding.

-Burn