Was told by Uakf.b

[AssPennies]

To post my complaints here so let's get started shall we?

Firstly, a member should not have to provide proof that he is not maphacking in instances of delayed fog clicks. The staff should be competent enough not to ban people for program mistakes so here is a list of members you have banned without sufficient evidence.

Guilty crown- Based on two delayed fog clicks. From the in-game chat it seems the real maphacker here is the kid who submitted this, who can be found at various points saying pink is fog clicking...during the game.

ggnoobsgg- Based on one delayed fog click, while the mod reviewed another case, he bans this player for the same exact fog click as in the case of guiltycrown. coincidence? no.

Nuf (furion pics) Yet another instance of a delayed fog click on the goblin shop...You can't seriously believe that three people that are maphacking with any decent anti click mh program, are not only gonna get caught clicking, but the same exact shop, a split second before they have unfogged vision...

Need I say more? That's 4 instances (including mine) of the same moderator making the same exact mistake. Learn to catch maphackers with actual instances of suspicious behavior before you entertain the idea of unreliable plug-ins.

YOU CAN NOT BAN PEOPLE FOR DELAYED FOG CLICKS UP TO 1.5 SECONDS OUT OF, OR INTO FOG It's just common sense.

[AssPennies]

Secondly,

I could go on forever listing the amount of accounts banned and appeals denied for the same reason. Why is something that everyone is supposedly aware of, so frequently overlooked? It's because I've found that the majority of the games in which I've observed, usually had one of your admins in it.

Your admins would constantly accuse people of maphacking and then submit a request, post the SS and the banning moderator would simply accept it without second guessing. This is why your community needs stricter guidelines for whom they consider to review replays. The majority of your staff are poor Dota players thus, have no actual maphack detection skill beyond the third party programs they use to detect fog clicks.

[uakf.b]

Well, I'm going to unban the first two and monster_rehab. Note that furion was never banned for maphacking.

[AssPennies]

I'll continue to look through the catalog of processed or denied appeals to locate more but most of these closed cases do not offer replay access due to an unknown error message which states that it can not find the replay to which these parsers belong.

Having your replay analyzers doing the same would be the civilized thing to do, I mean considering how arrogant they we're to some appealants based on their confidence in the plug-ins they used to detect the "fog clicks". I've personally never banned any maphackers without 100% certainty but when I found myself abusing my moderator privileges on annoying players in-game, I summoned the humility to apologize in their appeals.

[uakf.b]

No one's being arrogant, just mistaken. Thanks for going through the bans, we will try to prevent erroneous bans from happening.

The replays are no longer available because autosaved replays are deleted after seven days. I actually just told admins that, for maphacking-related bans, they should always attach the replay after they process a ban if it was not already attached so that it will be permanently available. If those players where the replay/other evidence is no longer available make a ban appeal, their appeal will be accepted without question. Otherwise, they will remain banned.

Edit: accepted unless, of course, someone still happens to have the replay somewhere and it proves the maphacking.

[AssPennies]

ON the contrary, your moderator, agreements, is completely disrespectful and outright rude to this player who has fallen victim to another bad call by the same moderator.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1694

Same invalid fog click, on the goblin shop, a fraction of a second into fog. Poor kid never even got a fair appeal, much less a respectable one.

[AssPennies]

Also uakf.b as you can see your moderator Vapula in his second post, openly admits to using his "detector," in game. You are aware that not only is this a third party program, but it's also an advantage...One would go as far as to say, a map hack...I know if I used a fog click detector IN-GAME, I'd pretty much be unstoppable!

You couldn't even turn it on just to "check for maphackers," without it still being used in a clan ent sanctioned game. Another point I'd like to make is that while this extremely simple ban was overturned, it was 100% inaccurate to begin with. Had the Moderator reviewed the case BEFORE banning this player, it would not have had the same result.

[uakf.b]

I will re-open allthemarbles's ban appeal.

[uakf.b]

Do you have the original replay? Because Formadawgs didn't post it and it also wasn't posted to the ban appeal.
Edit: and adventureclub also said 1 second is questionable..

[uakf.b]

Guilty crown: riki did gain vision of the shop, and it was much less than a second after he supposedly clicked it.
monster_rehab: balanar was just exiting vision when the click occured. He easily could have clicked before balanar left vision.
ggnoobsgg: replay is no longer available

Edit: do link; although it still doesn't prove anything, and I do find it odd that around half of the people banned for maphacking are because of a shop click that is just coming in to range

[uakf.b]

Deleted off topic posts. There is a PM system.

Guilty crown: riki did gain vision of the shop, and it was much less than a second after he supposedly clicked it.
monster_rehab: balanar was just exiting vision when the click occured. He easily could have clicked before balanar left vision.
ggnoobsgg: replay is no longer available

Edit: do link; although it still doesn't prove anything, and I do find it odd that around half of the people banned for maphacking are because of a shop click that is just coming in to range

[AssPennies]

You're right uak, I will no longer post off topic. I apologize for my pompous arrogance towards you and your staff because at the end of the day I believe we all have a common interest.

But there is one thing you've deleted that I believe is very important to understand. If you ban and deny appeals for people that are not maphacking, you're basically saying that we all might as well maphack because you can get banned for it either way.

This is why the process of banning for mh accusations, in clan Ent sanctioned games, should be far more detail oriented and not based solely on the very buggy premise of "fog clicks". If someone is indeed maphacking, a replay should be carefully examined several times and instances of suspicious actions should be noted.

Of course a fog click (not respawn related) that is blatantly in actual, uninterrupted fog is hard to dispute as anything other than maphacking. This I have always maintained.

[adventureclub]

the fact is probably about 50% of these questionable clicks are indeed maphackers. the problem is that 50% of these are not. therefore we cant really ban them unless we know 100%. If you find 10 replays where this happens four times a game then your chances of banning a hacker increase a lot. its just statistics. I wouldnt even use the fog click detector unless you already suspect them of maphacking. And even with suspicion and detections where vision was within a second its still not 100%. You need a really good fogclick like opposite of map with no vision to really indicate 100% pure maphack or the opposite of a delay click where they click BEFORE having vision. In that case it is impossible and also indicates maphack (like jackswifts click on secret shop).

[AssPennies]

I don't think you need to go through any that are more than a week old agreements. The logic is that if the player hasn't bothered to appeal, then it doesn't matter anyway.

As far as denied appeals go (in delay fog instances), you really can't overturn the decisions that have already been made because you have no way of contacting the player. If they re-appeal, sure, but I'm guessing you'll have an onslaught of new ban appeals very soon so simply tell them they're unbanned due to a parser error and move the appeal to processed.