ENT Gaming

The situation is as follows.

In legion there is a drawing function. There are two camps on how it should be used:
1. If someones discs everyone should draw
2. Drawing is not a good solution if someone disconnects.

I belong to the 2nd group. However, there is a (small) group who thinks it is right that everyone should draw if someone disconnects. The bad thing, however, is that this group has a great influence in the LIHL-scene, since 2 of them (iightfyre and BeepBoopBeep) are admins/moderators (i'm not sure) there.

They are in favour because they feel it is unfair for the remaining players of the team to have to play 3v4. But in fact this is not unfair, since all players will have to deal with it, and over a period of time everybody will have had about the same amount of disconnecters in their team.

Moreover, drawing is very susceptible for abusing, in other words, it is not strategy-proof (so what I mean with strategy-proofness is that you cannot illegitimately abuse it for your own gain). I think it is easy to see that it is very advantageous to pull the plug when you are losing, when they draw afterwards and you don't get a loss.

The admins solution to this is to make the disconnecter lose 15 elo. However, this is also not strategy proof. Suppose the friends A and B are 2 games in the same team and losing, if A fakes a disc in game 1, and B in game 2, they will both have saved eachother 1 loss and (about) 15 elo. I am not claiming this is happening, but it is perfectly feasible to do this in the current (and by the LIHL admin proposed) system. Also, you can steal the enemy's ELO by the strategy proposed by the LIHL-admins. For example, imagine A has a 20 ELO lead on B, and they are both in different teams. If A is losing and he pulls the plug he will only lose 15 ELO, but B will lose his chance on gaining 15 ELO, so he won't overtake A. This can also happen if you play vs people you don't like. If you do not want the enemy to gain ELO because you dislike them, you can pull the plug just before you lose to make sure they don't win ELO. This is even more problematic because, as you can imagine, it is very, very hard to prove intentional plugging.

As you can see, both the current and the proposed system are not strategy-proof.

My solution is to not draw anymore. As I said, not drawing is not unfair and it is strategy-proof, since intentionally plugging is in no circumstance beneficial for you. There is absolutely no reason to not accept this point of view, yet the admins do not want to.

I want to stress again that there is only a small group who thinks drawing is the best thing to do, but the bad thing is that they are in admin positions.

This all can be settled as just a poor judgment of the LIHL admin department, but there is something else going on.

This entire discussion on intentional plugging is because one of the admins themselves, namely BeepBoopBeep, is the main suspect of intentional plugging. As is stated often already in the topics devoted to this, it is almost impossible to prove this. Therefore, I hoped BeepBoopBeep and the other admins would embrace my solution so that this hint of cheating is removed. I think this is the only sensible and right thing to do for an admin and rank 1 player. However, both BeepBoopBeep and his best friend iightfyre refuse to take the 'no draw'-option in consideration. With this they deliberately and unnecessarily let this hint of fraud exist. In fact, this hint becomes even bigger: why would they hang on to an abomination of a rule that clearly benefits cheaters if they want cheaters to be ruled out of the game?

I will leave this last part at this question. I am not sure that they do intentionally plug. BUT - the only way we can be sure is not by proving it, because it is nearly impossible to prove it, but by removing the property of susceptibility to fraud. This is by removing the draw option.

My complaint and question to an unbiased admin is therefore two-fold:
1a. Can you confirm that the strategy proof tactic of not drawing is better than drawing?
1b. Can you confirm that the LIHL-admins are deliberately letting this hint of fraud exist on their part and what conclusions do you draw from this?

Perhaps you need to read the entire discussion to make your mind up on this: they are in the following threads:
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=8781
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=8775

Mick -

1. The LIHL was created with the !draw system in place. We took this thought from the HR games. We created the LIHL with !draw in mind. This was one of the founding principles of the LIHL. I'm sorry that you do not agree with it but it is not changing. This is how the league was created and how it will be played. When any member joins the league they are asked to review the rules and etiquette. Any member who disagrees with !drawing to keep the games fair is more than welcome to play the public bots instead.

2. The induction of the ELO loss for DC players will affect BeepBoopBeep the most in a negative way. The fact that you are still claiming that there is an "inside job" to boost his ELO is preposterous because it is being suggested that he suffers more for his DCs than anyone else. Please drop these accusations, they have no merit.

This whole topic here is very misleading. I believe the large majority of LIHL players (not just Beep and iight) agree that drawing when another player disconnects is the best way to go, and the fairest method. We always agreed to that in HR, and have kept it in LIHL, I don't understand how you find this so strange? Maybe because you never played HR with us before league was created, I don't know..... Maybe a poll could be set up to confirm that the majority of players are in favor of the draw system, since all LIHL players are signed up to the forum anyhow? I myself have never suspected any LIHL player of plug pulling, I really don't think one loss is such an end of the world situation to any of them that it would lead that far. Not to offend but I think this whole "what if they abuse it like this and that" is just a conspiracy theory to create drama and nothing more.

I do not wish to go into a new debate, because this can distract the unbiased admin from the case. Let me just say this and then I will leave it to the judgment of this admin.
1. I think it would be a good property if admins were open to suggestions and improvements. I think this argument of yours shows a lot about the willingness to contemplate about a well-intentioned advice. I have no double agenda whatsoever, just want the game to be played as honest as possible. I am open to good arguments against my suggestion and for yours, but I did not find one (and since I am in my final year of my study philosophy, I am very trained at analyzing arguments).
2. I do not want to go into accusations. However, as I stated in my original post, you leave the possibility to fraud open. As one of the admins is already presumably suspected of intentional plugging, it would be to the credit of the admins to grab every chance of diminishing this suspicion. You do not do this at all, intentionally leaving this hin of fraud to exist. (Surely, you do not claim my example of A and B in the same team do not apply to you or BeepBoopBeep?)

@xMilena I will grant you that most of the players agree with drawing (even though I don't know if this is true). This does not, however, dispel my point, since it is about facts and not about opinions. Perhaps I am creating drama, but it is because of the unwillingness of the admins to do the simple and right thing.

Also, I would like people to stay out of this discussion. As I said before, the group around iightfyre and BeepBoopBeep is very influential, active on forums but yet, small. If all of them post in here saying I'm just making a drama it seems like I am a fool who stands alone (which you probably want), but there are almost 50 LIHL players, and I know some of them have been questioning the drawing function. Commenting here will not add anything to the discussion, except distraction and a false picture of what the LIHL-community is like, and I think neither you nor me would want that. I just want to stick to the facts of my original post, which is factual and in no need of a forum army to rescue either of us.

No offense, but what I think you are suggesting Mickey is kinda (not sure the word). "Majority" of the players that play in LIHL agree to !draw if someone drops before lvl 20, that's why it is currently a rule. It has been an "unwritten rule" in HR, but you wouldn't know because you and Donald never played HR. Coming into LIHL accusing people of conspiracy is preposterous. Honestly, I don't think any player would do that in LIHL.

I for one completely agree with the !draw, because I tend to lag from time to time and every once in a while, I will drop from the game. No, it's not intentional. There have been times, where my team was winning and I dropped, however everyone still !draw (it's out of respect to the players). Also, if someone drops early in the game (level 5 or something), it gives a HUGE advantage to the team of 4 players. Would you suggest drawing then?

Now Mickey, I understand what you are saying, so an alternative solution is to let the team that has the player dropped decide if they want to continue or not. If they decide to continue, and end up losing, they can't draw, but if they want to draw, then !draw and start a new game. That would be the only solution I can think that would suit best for all players.

MickeyTheMousie wrote:1. I think it would be a good property if admins were open to suggestions and improvements. I think this argument of yours shows a lot about the willingness to contemplate about a well-intentioned advice.

1. Here is me being open to your first post as a suggestion:

iightfyre wrote:Implement a -15 ELO penalty to anyone who DC's from a game. Period. End of story. End of problems. Use gproxy or pay for better internet if you don't want to lose -15 elo

Is that not a new idea that I want to implement because of your post? You may not be satisfied, but we are indeed listening and adapting based solely on your arguments.

MickeyTheMousie wrote:2. I do not want to go into accusations. However, as I stated in my original post, you leave the possibility to fraud open.

2. Yes, the possibility remains open. I stated this earlier. It is a risk that we are willing to take.

iightfyre wrote:You are suggesting that people might smurf and help elo boost in LIHL? I find this preposterous and we are not going to change the ruling based the the very far fetched idea that LIHL can be rigged with a DC. Yes. WE WILL TAKE THIS CHANCE!

We are just going around in circles again.... ... ...

No offense taken, because:
1. I acknowledge it is a rule. However, it is a fraudulent and non-strategical proof rule. Therefore it should be replaced. Saying I am uninformed and not belonging to your group only shows I am right with how influential this one small group is.
2. I am not saying anyone IS intentionally disconnecting. I am saying it is possible to, and therefore it is a bad rule. Again, my rule is both fair and it is NOT possible to abuse it. Players who disconnect will get a loss, yes, but this is not unreasonable at all (whereas letting a possibility of fraud exist while it is not necessary is)
3. Your solution is not good because if you decide with 2 players (my example of player A and B in different teams) two alternately disc from a losing game, this team will of course want to draw. I would support you if you said the opposing team would have the chance to choose.

@iightfyre, alright, you are willing to take a rule that is open for exactly the kind of fraud that an admin (and friend of yours) is supposedly accused over a just as good rule that will exterminate this rumour. Duly noted.

The admins are open to suggestions and improvements, but what you are suggesting is not an improvement, it would allow unfair 3v4 games to be played. It is easy for good players to win 3v4 in pubs, but in cases such as the league, where all the players are highly skilled, it is in almost all cases impossible... so how is not drawing the better option? These are facts and not opinions, your conspiracy theory about the possibility of abusive plug pulling so that the draw function is used, though, is just an idea you have created to make reputable players who on the rare occasion may disconnect look bad; it is not a fact, and has no grounds. I do not fault you on that though, since you have just claimed you are in your final year of studying philosophy, which in general is just the study of a bunch of crazy mumbo jumbo junk ideas and arguments from old dead men from the 19th century regarding the nature of reality and the like- all of which are just that, ideas, not facts with any grounds for proof.

well you asked for my opinion on it and i gave it to you, dunno why you made a complaint

Lol Milena

I Just read this and dont see why a choice between 1 flawed system, and 1 unflawed system should be to the advantage of the flawed system. As Mick has obviously used a lot of time trying to help the LIHL community by presenting all pros and cons of the draw rule compared to not having a draw rule, to illustrate that the current rule is disadvantageous compared to not having the rule in the first place.

The current rule about draw! only favors people dcing, be it intentional or not.Why favor people who dc? Just remove the rule of draw and add the penalty for dcers imo, they ruin everyones game and should have to suffer the consequences for ruining for others, why should they be more important than all the rest?

I would sincerely like to believe that no LIHLer, would stoop to such low behaviour as to dcing on purpose, but I have been wondering if this were the case. Take for instance this game:
https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=1353847

A game which my team won, then I was not quick enough to leave the game, and was stuck in the game with only myself and BeepBoopBeep. Instead of leaving, I got the impression he plugged and replugged with gproxy to make me be unable to leave the game. His GProxy forced me to have to plug after 5 -10 minutes in the game, in order to leave the game. You can see that this is the case in the game.

DonaldtheDuckie wrote:I Just read this and dont see why a choice between 1 flawed system, and 1 unflawed system should be to the advantage of the flawed system. As Mick has obviously used a lot of time trying to help the LIHL community by presenting all pros and cons of the draw rule compared to not having a draw rule, to illustrate that the current rule is disadvantageous compared to not having the rule in the first place.

Ummm... Hello !?!?!

xMilena wrote: what you are suggesting is not an improvement, it would allow unfair 3v4 games to be played. It is easy for good players to win 3v4 in pubs, but in cases such as the league, where all the players are highly skilled, it is in almost all cases impossible... so how is not drawing the better option?

The not drawing system is much more flawed than the draw system, in my opinion... Why should the 3 other players who are left on the team VS. 4 have to play on in a game where they are almost guaranteed to lose because of their disadvantage, instead of just having everyone draw and restart the game? It's not like disconnects happen every game in league, they are pretty rare, but you are both talking like they are a highly common occurrence when they are not. You guys may feel like not drawing is the best idea now, but if you lost a bunch of games because you are down 1 player and nobody draws for you, I am sure you'd change your minds pretty quickly about which rule should be implemented.

Anyways. I am done regurgitating the same thing over and over in this thread and hopefully you guys are too, it is silly, and clearly nobody is going to change their opinion. I highly doubt the rule is going to be changed though, so I guess you two should either just accept it, or go back to pub-stomping where nobody draws for disconnects. The choice is yours, but please at least try to leave the drama to MTV and high school girls instead of bringing it on here in the future.

DonaldtheDuckie wrote:https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=1353847

A game which my team won, then I was not quick enough to leave the game, and was stuck in the game with only myself and BeepBoopBeep. Instead of leaving, I got the impression he plugged and replugged with gproxy to make me be unable to leave the game. His GProxy forced me to have to plug after 5 -10 minutes in the game, in order to leave the game. You can see that this is the case in the game.

lolol donald, where do you come up with these things

Even though I'm not part of LIHL, as a custom game mod I do feel the need to weigh in. I can understand a bit of what you're saying but if people PP(plug-pull) and we can find irrefutable proof of that(which is easier than it seems) then that person should be un-vouched in my opinion. Why should we allow plug pullers to ruin the community's in-house leagues when it's intentional game ruining in a way? I can understand a bit. However I do not believe that this should fall on the blame of the LIHL admins, although I do believe if anybody should try to fix the problem it should be them and other staff working as a team. The focus here should not be to put blame on staff but for us to work together to make a resolution.

I want to make a couple of more notes. (Sorry, Milena I am not going into the discussion of draw vs non-draw anymore, I think I made that pretty clear now)

First of all, iightfyre and I get along fine in battle.net. I think he will confirm.

Second of all, I have always shown openness to arguments, whereas the LIHL-admins have not. I have had 2 discussions about matters in the LIHL before this one. In one occasion I have let the arguments of the LIHL admins convince me (viewtopic.php?f=43&t=8233) and on one occasion I came up with a compromise (viewtopic.php?f=72&t=8396). It shows that I am only here to do the best we can. The LIHL-admins have not shown any openness to arguments in both those arguments as to this topic, where they stick with their original opinion.

Even in this topic, I have embraced the only compromise offered (by Diablo_, whom I do not know, for the record). This is the quote:

@Diablo_ I like your suggestion: it does justice to both my point and the 'draw-defenders'. I don't know about the technicalities as well I am ready to accept that one.

This compromise is ignored by the LIHL admins. I have constantly shown a positive attitude towards other arguments, I have shown I understand the arguments of the other people and have taken them in consideration. For example:

To BeepBoopBeep:

1. I can understand you don't want the losses. However, those disconnects will keep adding to the rumours of intentional disconnecting. I feel that as an admin you should stay clear from those accusations and take the losses as a sacrifice for your reliability.

To Supersexyy, i have on several occasions said I understand his idea, and added my opinion in a positive way:

Again, your ELO-solution is a step in the good way in my opinion, but I think just getting rid of the strange 'drawing' policy would settle the discussion once and for all.

Your solution does deter, this is what I like about your solution. However, as said, the ELO would have to be diminished by a lot more than your 'normal elo-loss' in a game to be effective. Therefore, non-intentional disconnects will be punished (too) harshly. Also, it is very hard to prove intentional disconnecting, so in practice your solution may have no effect at all. Like I said, can you tell if I have intentionally disconnected in games?

I have always stayed to have an open vision on the matter, like I show here to iightfyre.

I have summed up my version of what has happened at the complaint session. Perhaps it is based on a misunderstanding (like for example, that you thought that I think not-strategy-proof was good) and I would want you to reply then. If it is not, you can see the way I view this discussion and perhaps understand better what I mean.

Even in this discussion I am the only one open for a compromise and willingness to reach a conclusion:

3. Your solution is not good because if you decide with 2 players (my example of player A and B in different teams) two alternately disc from a losing game, this team will of course want to draw. I would support you if you said the opposing team would have the chance to choose.

I see now Hatelose is suggesting this in another topic (viewtopic.php?f=72&t=8781&start=20#p42715)

If you don't want to refer to my suggestions, the only suggestable thing for all players is let the opposing team decide if they want to draw or not. No more bitching and complaining. We are trying to have fun playing with good/pro LTD players (at least I am) not accuse anyone of cheating and seriously..........WHO CARES ABOUT ELO?!?!?! Fk...I swear all you babies cry about ELO too much.

So I will once again state: I am open for that compromise. Let the opposing team of the team that has the disconnect decide whether they want to draw or not.

EDIT: Thanks for your input, Karasu. . I am blaming the LIHL admins of PPing, but that they will not take a perfectly good measure in practice that will nullify the PPers, but rather stay with a fraudulent system.

EDIT again: Lol i am NOT blaming the LIHL of PPing lol

DonaldtheDuckie wrote:I Just read this and dont see why a choice between 1 flawed system, and 1 unflawed system should be to the advantage of the flawed system. As Mick has obviously used a lot of time trying to help the LIHL community by presenting all pros and cons of the draw rule compared to not having a draw rule, to illustrate that the current rule is disadvantageous compared to not having the rule in the first place.

The current rule about draw! only favors people dcing, be it intentional or not.Why favor people who dc? Just remove the rule of draw and add the penalty for dcers imo, they ruin everyones game and should have to suffer the consequences for ruining for others, why should they be more important than all the rest?

Well, if you are talking about it this way, okay.....let me present an example. iightfyre and I are friends and are playing on different teams. Team A and Team B. My elo is low as it is, so I don't care about it, however iight's is pretty high. I can disconnect (intentionally or not), leaving my team handicapped in a 4v3, which more or less my team will lose. GAME MUST CONTINUE.......4V3...PLAY ON!!!! How is your system not flawed? It is still flawed. There is no way of fixed disconnects. You are complaining more or less about elo.......

Edit: Plain and simple, as I stated in another topic. Let the team with the disconnected player decide if they want to continue or not. Although thinking about it.....what if the losing team has the disconnected player.....then they would decide to !draw. Hmmm.....thinking about this more and more there isn't a viable solution that will satisfy everyone.

Edit: What do you suggest we do in those cases? I'm referring to my previous edit above.