Azeroth wars Lr update again?

[CaptainAwful]

Hello Admins and mods.

Azeroth wars lr 1.90B just came out.
So i was think about if you could update your bot(ent41)
This version got a bug fixd from 1.90a where gray can get max attack speed from hes bloodlust mastery.
and you could read the changelog here:
http://diplomunion.com/index.php?thread ... log.18518/

[nabo.]

@captainawful

Moving topic to suggestions.

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@miloshte @Nocturnal

You guys can comment further on this topic.

Hello, I've got a request to make

A recent version of Azeroth wars version has been released on MMH, 1.90b and the changelog is very imbalanced and several community members of diplomunion.com including myself believe it will not be an enjoyable experience for the players of ENT, nor us. This request I want to make involves the re-upload of the older version, 1.90, because that is the version that contains the most balance out of 1.90a and the newly released 1.90b. Trust me when I tell you, the changes are horrendously OP and you can even check the thread in diplomunion.com for yourself If you don't believe me. Regardless, we will do what we can to help keep a dead game alive for as long as we can .

Thanks,

Milo.

Hello, Nabo

I logged into ENT today and there was a notification that I was mentioned. I played a few games on Azeroth Wars 1.9a on the autohost on ENT41 and I found that gray's ogre magi had 130% extra attack speed from their bloodlust, and units effected by that spell attacks four times per second. I'd like to post in this thread but I found that there wasn't the option for me to post here so I decided to send this PM. https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45699.

I asked some other players about this bug on the ENT and they told me that this bug was present since 1.9, so if I was to offer my two cents about this issue I would say that it is best to revert back to 1.88g because you can't play a balanced game when gray and his allies rolls over the entire map with units buffed to maximum attack speed. If you would like to confirm this bug for yourself, open the game in 1.9a, choose gray and research bloodlust mastery and ogre magi master training.

[AnglachelFB]

1.90: Interesting. I think it is up to community, although I wouldn´t suggest it. Map is being updated and 1.90b is up only for day. Let players experience it and if they aren´t happy with changes, they can go to diplomunion.com and talk about it with community and map makers. And if majority of people wouldn´t be happy with changes (after experiencing them, not after one day of new version. Seriously, how many games do you think people played during one day?), I believe map makers would change it in newer version.
1.88g: NOOOOOOOOOOOO! That version was bugged and shit! Whoever this Nocturnal is, he is lying to you! In 1.88g brown could spam unit called "Druids of the Fang", which could solo everyone. So, even when something similar was in 1.90a, the same thing, only for another player, is in 1.88g. Remember this: 1.88g IS SHIT!

1.90 and subsequent versions are better than 1.88g. Everything is better than 1.88g. If you don´t believe me, register on diplomunion.com and ask in AW: LR forum if people like 1.88g more than Rhemar´s versions. Ask community, not some guy who just hates Rhemar´s versions and lies to you about balance in 1.88g compared to 1.90 and its versions.

[nabo.]

This suggestion is open, so the community can actively provide feedbacks.

I do not play Azeroth Wars often. But, I do personally believe that if there is an active Azeroth Wars community including map-makers trying to improve the old 1.88 version = it is for the good and betterment of the whole community in the long run. As long as these mapmakers actively manage the 1.90 map and adjust/balance it fixing bugs and newly added elements...there should be no problem.

[Ordo]

if there is an active Azeroth Wars community including map-makers trying to improve the old 1.88

I'm afraid you misunderstand. There is no "community" trying to improve old version. There is one editing team that right now consists of Rhemar, Talinn and Augur (original creator of the map years ago) that is editing the map and releasing new versions, no other "teams" or paralel versions are being worked on. Version 1.88g was unbelievably bugged mess which took months to fix and balance out. I will trust in your future good judgement of not acting rashly just because some individual players are more vocal about what they don't like than others.

[AnglachelFB]

nabo, community providing feedback is here and map makers do what you said. They make new versions and improve map, fix bugs and do all map makery stuff. There are only few people who dislike Rhemar´s versions and as most of times with complainers, they are the ones who are heard most of times, even when they are few in number. And trust me that if you changed your bot back to 1.88g, big number of players would be unhappy and some of them (including myself) would stop playing on your bot. It is not threat, it is just explaining of facts. That version was horrible and that´s it. It should never be brought back.

Secondly, main problem people have with 1.90b is reducing maximal level of heroes from 25 to 15. You might understand that this is big thing change and some people may be angry about it as it really influences game. It is understandable but unless there are enough games played (and your bot is the best for it as most people play it), nobody can say for sure if it is for better or worse.

Thirdly, as I mentioned before, your bot is main source of AW: LR games (the automatic ones). Due to this fact most of new players meet with version you have hosted there. By putting there old version you can influence feedback in wrong way, as players would come to diplomunion and they would see that version they played is not newest version. So, these possible players who could post bugs would not post it, or post old bugs which aren´t present in newer versions. So, if some bad new things are implemented, by changing version to older (mainly to 1.88g which is really full of horrible bugs), you would only slow development of map and fixing of bugs. Changing of your bots to 1.88g would be the worst thing possible you could do.

By the way, how many players have complained so far since you changed to 1.90 and then to 1.90a and wanted 1.88g back? And how many 1.88g-s were hosted during that time on your bots? I think that these numbers won´t be high.

[nabo.]

I could have phrased better. When I said "improve", I meant editing the old or making a new from scratch improving the Azeroth Wars game itself. I appreciate that there are still wc3 mapmakers doing what they do. What most will care though is that the game itself stays good and fun.

There hasnt been much complaints regarding the new 1.90. I do not know about the a and b patch. The PM quotes I posted are simply feedbacks.

[Mopei_ECO200Y]

When 1.9b was released on diploumunion, the version was extremely ill received by the community there and most of the players expressed a strong distaste towards the new changes. I myself as a longtime Azeroth Wars player feel the same and even Rhemar's co-editor Talinn expressed his dislike towards the new changes on a post in diploumunion.
http://diplomunion.com/index.php?thread ... ost-554878

Also, it is true that in 1.9 grey can research bloodlust mastery and that spell would give the affected unit a maximum attack speed buff. As long as grey controls enough regions and knows what he's doing, he can take on the entire map himself (he also has an ally that casts healing waves by the way), therefore 1.9a is entirely broken. I've seen a grey putting raiders (they have seige damage) and ogre magis in transport ships and base aiming capital buildings - a capital goes down in a matter of less than 30 seconds with that bug being abused.

As for the 1.88g or 1.9 issue, I'm going to be honest about this - on the ENT bot, people keep saying that "1.88g is a better version ENT should start hosting that again". Every time I play games on the ENT bot this is what people say to each other and the 1.9 series isn't received well by the majority ENT players on the ENT bot. However, if I was to be more technical about this 1.9 (with not a's and b's) is not inferior by any means to 1.88g in regards to balance in the starting fight except that in 1.9 you can mass grunts to roll over the night elves as the horde. Therefore, I think that it should be a decision between whether to host 1.88g or to host 1.9 (because 1.88g is the most popular version among the ENT players and 1.9 is the newer version). Tbh I'd play either 1.88g or 1.9 on the ENT bot, but please don't host 1.9a and 1.9b because these two versions are utterly broken. 1.88g is the version that is more suited for the playerbase on the ENT while a lot of people on diplomunion prefer 1.9. Both versions aren't perfect and they have their own set of problems but either is far better than 1.9a or 1.9b.

[uakf.b]

Updated to 1.90 for now.

[Nocturnal]

1.90: Interesting. I think it is up to community, although I wouldn´t suggest it. Map is being updated and 1.90b is up only for day. Let players experience it and if they aren´t happy with changes, they can go to diplomunion.com and talk about it with community and map makers. And if majority of people wouldn´t be happy with changes (after experiencing them, not after one day of new version. Seriously, how many games do you think people played during one day?), I believe map makers would change it in newer version.
1.88g: NOOOOOOOOOOOO! That version was bugged and shit! Whoever this Nocturnal is, he is lying to you! In 1.88g brown could spam unit called "Druids of the Fang", which could solo everyone. So, even when something similar was in 1.90a, the same thing, only for another player, is in 1.88g. Remember this: 1.88g IS SHIT!

1.90 and subsequent versions are better than 1.88g. Everything is better than 1.88g. If you don´t believe me, register on diplomunion.com and ask in AW: LR forum if people like 1.88g more than Rhemar´s versions. Ask community, not some guy who just hates Rhemar´s versions and lies to you about balance in 1.88g compared to 1.90 and its versions.

Excuse me? I was asked by Nabo to comment on this topic so I commented. Gray units have four attacks per second is nothing compared to the druid of the fang and I have beaten many brown players who used druid of the fang in 1.88g. Not all of the players playing on this autohost bot visits diplomunion. I have friends who played Azeroth for a long time like olol-war-drood and nakedbeast who have beaten many famous players from diplomunion but think that 1.88g is a good version of the map. I can give you one example. In 1.88g only one gate was bugged in Dalaran but in 1.9 both gates and both portals bug they sometimes work they sometimes do not. You do not have to agree with me but do not call me a liar or say that my opinion is worthless.

[AnglachelFB]

Really? They sometimes work and sometimes not? Funny thing that I have never experienced anything like inability of player to close one of gates, which is present in 1.88g. Well, I am sure there are people who won againist gray in 1.90 and subsequent version. And, furthermore, druids of the fang will never be fixed, because, guess what, it has been done. It has been done in 1.89 and although there is bug in 1.90a, it is fixed in 1.90b, isn´t it? So, your argument that there is bug is invalid. Yes, there is, but it will be fixed. So, your opinion is worthless, as you are trying to push map back only because you want the worst version of AW: LR hosted on ENT (1.88g).

Mopei, of course that some players on ENT prefer 1.88g. Lot of players who play AW: LR on ENT are noobs. If you ask noob to choose between version, which is being updated and bugs are being fixed (including newer bugs just like gray´s bloodlust) or to stay with version where he can do imbalanced stuff and destroy games of others (orange permanently killing one of main blue´s heroes before blue gets him due to bug, brown spamming one unit to win, blue passing through gate which can´t be closed), what do you think they choose? I think you will know the answer. On diplomunion.com are more experienced players, players who want to play balanced map, not to abuse bugs. So, I think when we are talking about AW: LR, community on diplomunion.com should have main word in what is the best, not random players in ENT games who sometimes don´t even know basics of game.

I think it is time for ENTgaming to accept Rhemar, Talinn and Augur as legitimate and only editors of map (something what community on diplomunion.com did months ago) and host their versions just like you hosted versions by SteakOnSpear, Joffrey and Dave_Rolf. When 1.88 was being updated, you haven´t reverted back to less buggy versions of even older team (I think 1.86 was first version of Steak´s team but I am not sure, I wasn´t playing at that time yet). Even when Steak was creating some really bad versions (in 1.88 units could pass mountains, for example), you still stood with him and his team and updated his versions. So I appeal to you to stand with Rhemar´s team and if you have to (due to community not accepting changes in 1.90b), revert back to one of his versions not to 1.88g. I see that you already did it and reverted back to 1.90. Even though I think it is better to host 1.90b for better feedback, I want to thank you for staying with Rhemar´s version and I hope this will continue.

[Rhemar]

There's not much to say on this matter and I'm slowly getting tired of arguing with 5-10 members every time I try to upload the newest version on the bot so I'm just gonna keep this short. 1.90b is the newest version, it is by far the most stable out of all the recent versions from 1.88g to 1.90b. It does have one big change which will probably affect the game in one way or another but that's just how editing is, we try stuff and see how it works in games. Of course there are always people who think they know better and then they come here to tell us all which version should be played and why the new one is bad even though they haven't played a single game, which is what happened with 1.90b. 1.90a had a game beraking bug on bloodlust, 1.90 is a good version without game breaking bugs but it does have some balance issues, I do believe that 1.90b is the best one out of the three and if you want to it would be nice if the bot got updated. Now I'm guessing there's gonna be someone who feels obligated to reply so just to make this clear, I won't be replying to any discussions about this unless an admin wants to talk. I've said my piece for the 100th time, it's up to the ENT admins if they want my maps uploaded or not. In the future I'll leave it up to the community to upload my maps on ENT because I am really tired of it all.

[Mopei_ECO200Y]

AnglachelFB, look, I don't want to argue that 1.88g is better than 1.9 or anything but your arguement is outright stupid. How is an ogre magi who buffs every unit to attack at maximum attack speed more inbalanced and than fangs? You bloodlust raiders with that unit and you can aim down a capital building in less than 30 seconds! Now lets see a druid of the fang do that? The ogre magi could bloodlust almost ANYTHING, and that INCLUDES TAURENS WITH PULVERIZE. Have you actually seen a tauren with pulverize under the effect of that bloodlust? On top of that they are spirit linked, healing waved, healing warded and can be ressurected, wow that defeats fang by a longshot if you ask any experienced LR player.

Your other points are valid though, because I agree that the players on the ENT are rather inexperienced compared to players from diplo but remember that this is the ENT bot and not a diplo bot, and I merely stated a fact that most players on the ENT bot prefer 1.88g over 1.9. The problem with 1.9 is that the map has a lot of pathing issues, so none of the gates + portals in Dalaran are actually bugged but that pathing is so fucked up to the point that you move your group to one place but it ends up going to another which gets really annoying. Actually, you were the guy who made a post about this on diplo because I remember seeing it myself.

There is little dispute about the fact that Rhemar is the main editor now, and tbh there is no point in discussing that because at the current moment it is obvious that Rhemar is the new editor and this fact should be accepted by everyone. However, when we look at the balance of the map it doesn't matter who made the map - what matters is whether if the map is BALANCED and PLAYABLE. A lot of people tend to say "can we have the new version because the map got updated?" but an updated and newest version doesn't mean that it's gonna be be balanced. Rhemar was saying that 1.9a is more balanced and has less bugs when he was uploading 1.9a on the ENT without playing a single full house game on 1.9a himself and he was proved wrong through the bloodlust bug. It would be nice if Rhemar actually played his versions on the ENT bot with the players here but Rhemar doesn't like that which is extremely problematic in my opinion because Rhemar has less experience playing his own new versions compared to his co-editor Talinn who plays regularly on the ENT bot with us. Perhaps this is one of the reasons when the majority of the diplomunion community expressed their distate on Rhemar's newest 1.9b when it was released. Here is the link to the changelong thread and the comments on it in case people are wondering how 1.9b was received on diplomunion. http://diplomunion.com/index.php?thread ... log.18518/

When the majority of the diplomunion community (which includes many experienced players) is arguing that the new version 1.9b is problematic, this is an obvious sign that there is a huge issue that needs to be settled between the community and the editor. The map should be made for the sake of the community, so when the community dislikes 1.9b it obiously means that 1.9b will not be played often if not at all.

[AnglachelFB]

Although you have to admit that most of these negative comments were posted by players who in that time probably haven´t played new version. How can you say something is bad when you haven´t tried it? I for example, haven´t played it yet, so I won´t say that this change is for better or worse. It is just big change which influences game and we can see in future if it was good or bad.
Yes, pathing is strange. Although comparing it to non-functioning Dalaran gate is like messing apples with pineapples (yep, this is phrase in my language, I don´t know english equivalent). They are both fruit (bugs), but are different. Nocturnal used it as reason why 1.88g is better, but as I said, it is something absolutely different. And you are definitely able to find a way to send your units from these towns (in 1.90 I had issues with pathing in Lordaeron city when units were trying to go through wall as it was shortest way to get to their destination...well, except of that there was wall I haven´t played as Dalaran in 1.90, but I had issues in 1.90a, although in my opinion not as big as gate in 1.88g).
My point with bloodlust/fangs thing is mostly that bloodlust in fact is fixed (1.90b), while fangs will never be fixed in some 1.88h. And how long has it been between releasing of 1.90a and 1.90b (I seriously don´t know, time is not my speciality )? It surely was less than 1.88h...oh, wait, there is nothing like that, so yep, that bug never got fixed by team which created it.
Regarding ENT players and Diplo players, I will give you one example. When there are 30 players who want bugged game to abuse bugs and there are 10 players who want balanced game, which group of them should people in charge listen to? I think that in any map on any bot hosts should go for version with least bugs and preferably the newest one without main issues, as it would help to improve map the most. And if those players who are abusing bugs leave due to them not being able to do it anymore, it is only good for player community.
I think main issue with 1.90b is stuff with maximal level of heroes lowered to 15. This is what most people were complaining about. I think that regarding this it would be the best to just put that version on bot, let it be there until newer version comes out. You can´t say that editing team doesn´t listen to players, so by putting it on ENTbot people can only get more experience with this, they can provide feedback and if it really is so bad, I think that team will listen to players and try to find way to please them.
And, well, 1.88g was played too, although community hated it. So 1.90b would be played as well.

[Ladsind]

As a tester myself (i mean not AWLR map tester, but a profession) it's really strange that Rhemar decided to make such a big decision to release without proper testing. It's not a Call of Duty with release date, Rhemar have no boss or shareholders which require him to release game and make sales. Even more, Warcraft 3 is already released, he skipped the most important parts of map release: testing and balance.Really, if even 1.90a had a gamebreaking bug (max attack speed? Broken Dalaran gate in 1.88g is nothing compared to this), are you sure you have no more in 1.90b? Huge hero rebalance with lowering stats, ultimates nerf - you should at least test it in all initial brackets, if you can't make in in full-house game. You are not better than Steak if you gonna ask ENT admins to upload non-tested version to ENT bot.

As i told you once on Diplo - dont make haste with new versions.