Automatic stat resets

[ColdKiller3]

The Problem:
As many people in the playing community and by now I'm sure the administration here also are aware, there has lately been a largely growing problem with the ELO rating system. The mathematical system itself works fine in general, as has been proven with both dota and chess. However, in dota, and i assume in legion td also, there have been many abusers to the rating system. Players will intentionally lower their rating to absurd levels, in an attempt to either boost the elo of their friends, or to cause opponents to lose more elo by sniping them and playing to their true abilities in a game. And as I am sure the staff here is already aware of these activities, the perpetrators get away with anyway, because they can dump their elo to accomplish their goal of either boosting or sniping long before the staff can pass judgement for their actions through the processing of ban requests. As I understand it, you guys are quite busy.

The Suggested Solution:
What I would recommend is a minimum elo requirement for participation in ent games, and not to discourage less experienced players, a very basic penalty for reaching the minimum. I think most of us can agree that, in any ENT hosted game, a player below a rating of 800 elo has likely reached that rating on purpose, with the intent to disrupt the honest functionality of the rating system. But I think you can discourage, or even completely eradicate, these violations with a simple procedure. If the league were to set a minimum elo requirement (800 elo as i suggested perhaps, or maybe you guys have a different number in mind like 750 or 700, etc...), you could prevent people from ruining games for other players by instituting the following penalties/corrections for exceeding the minimum:
1) complete reset of stats back to the probationary 1000 elo (fair because it is actually an increase in rating, to protect the integrity of the rating system)
2) a 2 hour ban to prevent further abuse before they can cause more damage to the integrity of the rating system (the same penalty as for leaving before completion of a game)

Final Thoughts:
I think that these penalties are lenient enough to not discourage inexperienced players from trying to learn and improve their play, but to the contrary will effectively prevent intentional abuse of the rating system. In the past week, I have seen more than 10 players rated below 800 elo, and even 1 or 2 players rated in the 400's (Obviously intentionally throwing games to reach such an epic low. And these people suddenly play perfect games when their opponents are high rated players, to prevent them from earning more elo, instead of challenging them with their main account on even grounds for honest and fair earning or losing potential for elo). Can we try something like this to stop the trolling together? The players and their league can unite in this way to make the games both more honest and more competitive. I think everyone wins if this can be implemented.

[nabo.]

I honestly cant believe players who can reach 300 elo... but anyway, I have seen some legit bad/dumb players. Being bad is not game ruining though. There has to be some evident negative intention/actions.

I do think that players with below 800 elo or so give a wrong impression that they are complete baddies. Bad impression can lead to bad teamwork and blames... Despite my initial assumptions, I have seen pretty ok 800 elo players who are willing to listen and play with the team. I have also seen my share of horrible ones too. Personally, I do not understand players who dont make a new account and start anew as 1000 elo, but I guess they simply dont care or like their low elo.

1) Reset could work, but I do not think it is fair to those who have achieved certain stats/elo. How frequently should stats be reset?
2) Banning players for having low elo? I do not think so. If you think they are purposely ruinning games, why dont you check a replay or report them after you seen them play? Will be way more effective than this 2 hour ban which will probably be ineffective.

Best solution against smurfs and snipers would be having our own client which will allow only 1-2 accounts per person, but this suggestion is not feasible at the moment. The main problem is due to low skilled players on average and old wc3 system with no matchmaking feature.

Staff is aware of what activities? Low elo players? Yes. Legit ones? Yes. Non-legit ones? Not sure. We have enough to take care of at hand on forum. It is not possible to monitor every game played by players below 800 elo or so.

[ColdKiller3]

Well I see your point there in some cases nabo, but I didn't intend for these solutions to effect anyone in a permanent way. For instance, if a player never has their rating drop below the designated limit, they would never be subjected to a reset. Also, the ones who did drop that low would only be out of the action for a short time, perhaps the ban message could suggest that they study some strategy on the game they are playing, if in fact they are actually just a bad player, instead of a game ruiner. But the overall point of what I suggested, is that it doesn't allow the real game ruiners to have an opportunity to continue to force their rating lower in an effort to abuse the system. I really don't have any problems with low-skill players. In fact I think they are a legitimate and essential part of the game and subsequent rating systems. That was why I was suggesting that the staff determine what rating is so low that it is likely not just a bad player. I personally think that number is 800, being that I have had friends new to the game who never dropped that low. But maybe you guys think the cut-off rating for reset should be lower. The point is, there has to be some number that we would all agree is a fair low-end limit. What is the highest rating number you yourself might see in a lobby, without thinking that the person had to ruin games to get that low rather than being just bad? That number is 800 for me, but maybe its 650 for you, or 700 for other staff members, but I think it would be reasonable for you guys to discuss it and run a trial at least. The lack of rating abuse will benefit all players by discouraging dishonest behavior in ENT games.

[I_kill_satan]

The most times (at least in LTD) people just create new 1000 elo accounts as smurf support to buff their elo. So any restrictions at lowest elo border wont solve the elo abusers problem.

And actually, if player guess that he s not sure in game result, he can just avoid to play that game and going next (and protect his undeserved and too high elo). So, "true" skill rating should not allow players to choose their enemies. For example, in chess elo calculate only in tourney games, where you obviously have no option to choose ur opponents.

I previously suggested to create maximum elo restriction on pub bots, for example, 2000. And if player wants more, he should go to the 1100+ elo bot and earn it there in more competition enviroment.

[ColdKiller3]

Its true that in chess tournaments a player cant choose his opponent, however in chess tournaments it is understood that everyone is there to play to the best of their ability, not to use their rating with intent to fix the results of matches to either augment one person's rating, or hurt another's.

And I don't think you understand the point at all, being that you are whining that people are rated too high. Take your jealousy or lack of ability to compete somewhere else maybe.

Furthermore, your final thought isn't completely terrible. Perhaps the 1100+ ENT bots should have a higher number associated with them, since plenty of bad players achieve ratings over 1200 even. Maybe the ENT admins would be willing to consider starting a Tier 2 bot with a more reasonable number attached to it, such as a 1300+ bot, or maybe a 1400+ bot even, for games like dota and ltd.

I suppose I wouldn't care about the game throwers, if there were 2 different types of public games:

1) public games as they are already set up, allowing players of any rating to play... and
2) public games open to anyone with a high enough rating... but the 1100+ bots are not high enough of a minimum rating to attract the skilled players, because they can still be stuck with horrible people who had their game ruining friends boost their elo for them. Its a little more attractive when the players see a number like 1300+ or more, greatly lowering the possibility of any legitimately unskilled players in the game, allowing for easier proof of game ruining if someone performs in a such a manner that would contradict their performance leading up to reaching a rating high enough to be in that game. These Tier 2 bots could also be hosted with more competitive modes for dota, like RD, CM, and CD.

[I_kill_satan]

And I don't think you understand the point at all, being that you are whining that people are rated too high. Take your jealousy or lack of ability to compete somewhere else maybe.

hahaha u r so funny freak.

u dont understand how the stast buff works in real life.

NOBODY try to get his elo lower on purpose, for helping to buff friend's main account, because its very long, annoying and boring. They just create new 1000 elo accounts and buff 2k+ friends account but u failed to understand it.

Ur "suggestion" is completely useless.

[ColdKiller3]

Actually people do intentionally smurf below 800 to boost friends' stats. And the ones that don't do it to boost for a friend, simply do it to snipe the high elo accounts with their super low elo accounts to cause them to lose more elo, being that the ratings earned/lost are based on the avg of each team. So go be stupid somewhere else unless you have something constructive to add. My suggestions are for the staff, particularly for nabo. and not some dumb child troll.

[aRt)Y]

ENT isnt only for the "good" players. It is open to all kind of players. If you, however, see someone stats boosting or suspect him of doing so, feel free to report it.

Having multiple elo restrictions or automatic stats wipes for bad elo does not seem realizable for me. Additionally, players can wipe their elo whenever they want. If they don't want to, we wont force them.

[ColdKiller3]

I was never suggesting that ENT should remove the "bad" players aRt)y but rather just try some preventative measure to separate the legitimately unskilled from the intentionally trolling people. Why should it have to be so much more difficult for the honest player than the dishonest one. It takes the troll all of 30-45 seconds to create an account to ruin games with. It can take 20+ minutes to report a player, and a couple weeks sometimes to get a processed request. Its just less work for everyone if there is an automated system to handle this. What I seem to be hearing from the reactions here is that either this league condones cheating/game ruining, or doesn't care about the people it has an effect on. I see at least a minimum of 10 of these game ruining trolls per week, so why should I have to take the extra 200+ minutes to report each one? The time that I spend posting is essentially the equivalent of ban time, when I could be enjoying your games. You're essentially and effectively putting the ban on the honest player instead of on the people attacking the integrity of your league. And I am sure there are many others who feel the same way I do. Sadly, few of them view this forum. I'm sure the only comments, aside from the much welcomed admin input, will be from trolls who are guilty of these offenses who say this idea is stupid.

[nabo.]

Why does it take 20 minutes to report someone? oO
Shouldnt take you more than 5-10 minutes to report someone. Write down or remember when something happens and use replay seeker to forward replays faster. Banning someone for 2 days - 1yr is worth the effort imo.

I dont see you providing any good and feasible solution(s) to your problem:
I dont think stats reset will happen. We could vote for it, but I doubt people will agree + we already transfer/clear/restore stats, so I am not sure about this. Unless stats are reset often, this solution is only temporary anyway. As you and I both have agreed already, there are legit bad players with low elo who are not game ruiners. Due to these people, having a minimum elo you can get seems a bad solution also.

Since we cant get a client going either, my best suggestion for you would be to suggest getting a 1100+ bot running for dota to filter 1k smurfs and those below 1k or suggest removing -em all together so the general level of ent dota players get better overall...

Yes, as a long time dota player, I am sad with the overall lower skill lvl of players. But, it is what it is. Non-em games rarely even fill and playing -em doesnt fully optimize dota mechanics and how the game is suppose to be played.

"Putting the ban on the honest player instead" ? What? Anyone who gets banned, get ban for a reason. If there was a ban for no absolute reason, tell me about it. Dont comment regarding moderation when you lack involvement and argue about your time, but not ours.

If the number of low elo players (those below 800 elo) is not too many, when I am free, I will try to check 2-3 replays of each and review whether they play to lose or game ruin in general.

[NumberOneStunna]

I too like the idea of an 1100+ DotA bot, but this could be problematic in implementation. I sometimes play on the DRB bots (europe only) because they host only non-EM games. DRB splits its bots into 1100- and 1100+, and the result is that all games fill more slowly. Of course, DRB has only a fraction of the player base that ENT has, but that can always change. If games start filling more slowly, if we change to the 6.83 map currently under consideration, these are all factors that can cause people to leave, whether to quit entirely or to move to DotA 2. In other words, the more similar we make the bots to DotA 2 (requiring players to play non-EM, updating the map), the more likely that some players will leave for DotA 2 or quit. If the player base shrinks, bots divided by skill become infeasible.

I can also add some commentary to this issue of 800 elo players. I like to play games that are reverse-stacked, so I often try to find games where my team had 600-800 elo players (at least one). Only on the rarest occasion do I find that someone is throwing the game intentionally (and when I do find this, it is almost ALWAYS a 1000 elo new account, not someone with real stats). I have played literally hundreds of games with these low ELO players on my team, and if you were to name a particular player I could probably offer my experience with that player. I think that, for the most part, decent players unreasonably expect everyone else in the game to be decent as well, as the OP seems to expect here. There are tons of players who enjoy these games, know quite a bit about them, but don't focus intensely the way that some of us do when playing. They therefore have poor map awareness and make all sorts of other poor decisions. It's easy for a player with poor map awareness to be 0-5 in the first 10 minutes, without doing anything intentional to feed. I see it virtually every game.

[aRt)Y]

Suggestion denied for two reasons:
DotA ap games already fill slowly (see other suggestion), therefore further restricting bots via elo is not guddy.
Secondly, as nabo mentioned, there're legit newbie players.

If you don't care about reporting players, then you don't seem to care about the game. Reporting takes even less than 5 minutes with the format and stats page providing you all details.

There must be a better way to fight the trolls. ~~