@nabo
Regarding my second point above, I don't think I was very clear, so here's what I meant to communicate: If two teams each have 1400 average, the gain/loss is 15/15. If you take 4/5 of one team, keep those players the same, but put them on 1000 ELO accounts, the gain loss will be more like 5/25. It's the same game, with the same chance to win or lose, but the potential risk and reward is greatly changed. People who've built accounts with 1000 ELO smurfs have been able to benefit from this greater risk/reward ratio all along, resulting in much higher overall ELO for those players. It's clear that a large number of top accounts would never have reached their current stats without that benefit.
Regarding my third point, it seems like it would be fairly easy for you guys to put a stop to the smurfing practice if you wanted to do so. I understand that you can't stop people from making new battle.net accounts. However, you keep track of aliases attached to particular IP addresses, so isn't it easy to see if someone has lots of 1-0 accounts, each of which has one win with the same person? It seems like it would be easier to conclusively prove this than most other bannable offenses. You could at least give people warnings, or whatever you think is the best outcome. It seems to me that smurfing hasn't been bannable because it's just such a longstanding practice in every DotA community to ever use an ELO system. It's so expected that, when a high ELO player sees a bunch of new accounts on the other team, he pretty much always assumes it could be snipers.
In any event, I just wanted to clarify my points, and I agree with your suggestion here. I would, however, ask that you consider what I'm saying about the 0-2000 and 1400-4000 ranges as a good way to implement your suggestion on a trial basis. Think of it this way: Your objection to these bracket ranges is that, by allowing people to stay in the lower bracket all the way to 2000 ELO, we won't get enough players in the higher bracket to run games on a regular basis. It might work out that way, and it might not. I suspect that a lot of higher ELO players would appreciate the change and would flock to the higher bracket regardless of what range we assign to the lower bracket, thus leaving people the option to play games of either type on a regular basis, as they choose. It could go the other way as well, as you've suggested. But by setting the lower bracket to 0-2000 on at least a trial basis, you'd give people a chance to vote with their feet: if 1400+ ELO players are overwhelmingly sticking to the lower bracket, then that tells us a great deal about what the community as a whole (which is not necessarily represented on the forums) wants.
Just some thoughts - I appreciate your responses.
0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
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NumberOneStunna
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nabo.
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
How is your gain loss 5/25 when your elo avg goes down....zzz I guess you mean 25/5. Anyway, we both understand that smurfing can be gay. What I was trying to explain was the reason why good players end up smurfing and not continue playing their main accounts. There is no competition or match making system which matches high elos vs other high elos + the proportion between very high elo vs lower elo is too big that high elo players cant get a fair elo gain for their games, especially those who have over 2400 elo who win nothing and lose a lot. You think that those who are 2k elo now would not reach 2k elo if no smurf. I disagree. If the player base is same, they will eventually reach 2k elo. The only difference would be the number of games that will take to get to 2k elo. If the player base changes skill+ number-wise, that is another story (ex. back in the day when dota1 was at its peak and we had more good players it took an avg of 200 games to get 2k elo).
I have an account which has about 55-60 games and is 2k account. This was an account made playing autobal games only in the past. Proves my point about how easier it is to gain elo when playing a more equal avg elo game. In brief, this suggestion is to REDUCE smurfs/snipers and making games bit more fair. Thats all.
As for moderating smurfs, it is not that we dont care, it is simply that it is impossible to regulate this. We cannot alias every dam player and ban each one. Every time we ban one, there will be another who makes a new account. Unless we can restrict the number of accounts per person, regulating new number of aliases is not possible.
0-2000 makes no sense. Why bother having a higher elo game then? People will simply play on the 0-2000 bot instead of the 1400-4000 elo game. If this is your suggestion, I would rather suggest a normal no limit apem bot and a 1100+ apem bot instead.
As I said, the number of 1500-2500 elo players is quite small in proportion to the rest. So, 1400-4000 elo bot will not work out with the 0-2000.
I have an account which has about 55-60 games and is 2k account. This was an account made playing autobal games only in the past. Proves my point about how easier it is to gain elo when playing a more equal avg elo game. In brief, this suggestion is to REDUCE smurfs/snipers and making games bit more fair. Thats all.
As for moderating smurfs, it is not that we dont care, it is simply that it is impossible to regulate this. We cannot alias every dam player and ban each one. Every time we ban one, there will be another who makes a new account. Unless we can restrict the number of accounts per person, regulating new number of aliases is not possible.
0-2000 makes no sense. Why bother having a higher elo game then? People will simply play on the 0-2000 bot instead of the 1400-4000 elo game. If this is your suggestion, I would rather suggest a normal no limit apem bot and a 1100+ apem bot instead.
As I said, the number of 1500-2500 elo players is quite small in proportion to the rest. So, 1400-4000 elo bot will not work out with the 0-2000.
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NumberOneStunna
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
Agree with 90% of what you say here. Good explanations. My only thought is that the 0-2000 would make sense as a trial bot, along with a 1400+ bot, because it would allow us to gauge whether most 1400+ players actually want the restrictions. If most of them stick to the 0-2000 bot, then it would let us know that people simply don't want the change. That's all. But I'm all for the change myself. I do think it would improve game quality.
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I_kill_satan
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
nabo. wrote: If the player base is same, they will eventually reach 2k elo. The only difference would be the number of games that will take to get to 2k elo.
In Dota, i agree with u, but in LTD, imo, no. Most of 2k+ players never return it again, i even no talk about 2,3-2,6k.
nabo. wrote:0-2000 makes no sense. Why bother having a higher elo game then? People will simply play on the 0-2000 bot instead of the 1400-4000 elo game.
Currently In LTD, players choose 1100+ bot because it is no-cross bot with "lihl rules", and not because its high-elo one. So, if u will have 0-2000 with cross/merc/double build/AS and 1400-4000 with no cross, merc, clog, AS for catch leaks (btw hi!
) etc etc people still will prefer 1400-4000 or 1200-4000 or whatever.-
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
@supersexyy @I_kill_satan
1) Good question. I did not think of that. Cant think of a good solution atm, so it seems my suggestion more suited for dota and not LTD. It wouldnt make much sense to only allow crossing on lower tier bot, right? hahahah. Current 1100 elo restriction still eliminates a fair number of smurfs.
2) Tried going to 3k elo with a friend...I found that going over 3k elo to possibly 4k is very very very difficult or not possible (not sure how elo will be calculated after 3k+. Perhaps 1/5 1/6 elo gain in comparison to teammates' elo gain?).
@1005
0-1400 & 1200-4000 (or 1100-4000) elo category bots would actually bring you more players since those who are above 1400 elo would have to play on the higher tier bot. But, it seems this suggestion cannot happen unless cross is only allowed on the lower tier bot or eliminated all together.
supersexyy wrote:1) What about players who like the 1100+ bot and want to play no cross? I think the no cross feature of the 1100+ is good.
2) What about players over 4k elo?
1) Good question. I did not think of that. Cant think of a good solution atm, so it seems my suggestion more suited for dota and not LTD. It wouldnt make much sense to only allow crossing on lower tier bot, right? hahahah. Current 1100 elo restriction still eliminates a fair number of smurfs.
2) Tried going to 3k elo with a friend...I found that going over 3k elo to possibly 4k is very very very difficult or not possible (not sure how elo will be calculated after 3k+. Perhaps 1/5 1/6 elo gain in comparison to teammates' elo gain?).
@1005
0-1400 & 1200-4000 (or 1100-4000) elo category bots would actually bring you more players since those who are above 1400 elo would have to play on the higher tier bot. But, it seems this suggestion cannot happen unless cross is only allowed on the lower tier bot or eliminated all together.
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NumberOneStunna
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
Several people have mentioned that most ENT players don't use the forum and therefore don't have a voice in these discussions. So here's what I would propose, for this major change, as a method of implementation that would let us gain the most data about player preferences. Implement in three phases (this is DotA only):
1. Simply add an 1100+ DotA bot, replacing some currently unused bots. This will give us some information to work with, by showing which bot higher ELO players prefer.
2. If this works out the same, change the 1100+ to 1200+. If not enough of the 1200+ players are moving to that bot to make games start fast enough, consider what this means. Do people want the change?
3. If the first two phases have been successful, keep the 1200+ bot and add a 1400 elo restriction on the original bots.
Seems like an implementation along these lines would be smoother and allow us to gather more info, while testing different arrangements.
1. Simply add an 1100+ DotA bot, replacing some currently unused bots. This will give us some information to work with, by showing which bot higher ELO players prefer.
2. If this works out the same, change the 1100+ to 1200+. If not enough of the 1200+ players are moving to that bot to make games start fast enough, consider what this means. Do people want the change?
3. If the first two phases have been successful, keep the 1200+ bot and add a 1400 elo restriction on the original bots.
Seems like an implementation along these lines would be smoother and allow us to gather more info, while testing different arrangements.
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NumberOneStunna
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
@Nabo. Here's something worth giving some thought to: are there any rule changes you'd suggest for the higher bracket DotA bots, as we've done for the 1100+ LTD bots?
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1005
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
0-1400 & 1200-4000 (or 1100-4000) elo category bots would actually bring you more players since those who are above 1400 elo would have to play on the higher tier bot. But, it seems this suggestion cannot happen unless cross is only allowed on the lower tier bot or eliminated all together.
I would vote for 0-1400 and 1100-4000 elo ranges. It sounds like a good idea.
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I_kill_satan
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
I would vote for 0-1999 and 1100-4000 LTD bots with different rules.
Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
Why is there an upper limit for the higher bot? Is it to force a stats-reset on players above 4k ELO, because they can't join any new games?
Main problem is (as always
) the players understanding of the whole ELO system. It is meant to provide a skill indicator and not to be a "reward" of any kind.
Because the rating of their skill does not change, no matter how many noobs they beat up... it is already in their stats and if they want to move on, they have to show their skills against better opponents.
Main problem is (as always
) the players understanding of the whole ELO system. It is meant to provide a skill indicator and not to be a "reward" of any kind.nabo. wrote:the proportion between very high elo vs lower elo is too big that high elo players cant get a fair elo gain for their games
Because the rating of their skill does not change, no matter how many noobs they beat up... it is already in their stats and if they want to move on, they have to show their skills against better opponents.
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nabo.
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Re: 0-1400 & 1200-4000 elo bot for ltd and dota
Personally I think this is a great suggestion, however, not enough vote participation as I hoped.
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