LTD Mega rule rewording

[Akitos]

"Do not sell value to stall time and gain an advantage on a racing level."

Imo this rule needs rewording due to being abused recently (see here). The way the wording is right now you can actually sell one level before you're racing and not actually break the rule... Obviously that's fucking stupid and people should be punished either way, because it's very obvious that the meaning of the rule is that you should not have low (or even 0) value on a racing level. Not to mention that you might also interpret it in a way that "Do not sell value to stall time..." is already breaking the rule, and the "... and gain an advantage on a racing level." is only an addition. Either way, it needs rewording to make it waterproof for those who constantly seek to abuse rule wordings.... I feel like we also need this rule back:

"Do not intentionally clog: Players must have close to half of the recommended value."

People going heavy suicide and clogging on race levels is still a thing, despite 3.41e hitting clogging quite hard. The game I posted above is a really good example...


Edit (Haz): Added poll.

[ispamcolts]

This is a good point. As the wording currently stands, the phrase "to gain an advantage" is rather broad.

Does it mean that a player can sell on 11, to guarantee a leak there and initiate a cycle of leaking, forcing a 15 send? If that team is relatively much stronger 15 and a race is forced there, isn't this "gaining an advantage"?

[Akitos]

Does it mean that a player can sell on 11, to guarantee a leak there and initiate a cycle of leaking, forcing a 15 send? If that team is relatively much stronger 15 and a race is forced there, isn't this "gaining an advantage"?

I don't know, ask @Av1oN

[Merex]

The case was tricky, that's all. I don't appreciate hostility and constant requests being brought up. You wanted your 2nd opinion and you got it.

That request in specific he did sell his units, of course it's not ideal for any game to just go down to 0 value especially one round before the race so he was banned as warning for it. Meaning, his actions in that game were not ok but since no prior history and the case at hand, he got half a day to be reminded of such.

Pardon the offtopic but I just wanted you to be clear of that. @Akitos

[Akitos]

The case was tricky, that's all. I don't appreciate hostility and constant requests being brought up. You wanted your 2nd opinion and you got it.

That request in specific he did sell his units, of course it's not ideal for any game to just go down to 0 value especially one round before the race so he was banned as warning for it. Meaning, his actions in that game were not ok but since no prior history and the case at hand, he got half a day to be reminded of such.

Pardon the offtopic but I just wanted you to be clear of that. @Akitos

Guess I should've made myself more clear when I asked for a 2nd opinion, my bad. I wanted a 2nd opinion from a mod who actually plays LTD and knows about the clogging issue. Clogging has always been a hard ban and for such an obvious intentional clog there has never been such thing as a warning... There was nothing tricky about it really, he was intentionally clogging hard. Very simple case. And blue built towers that could pull opposite lane, also simple. It just appears tricky to you because you're not into LTD.

[aRt)Y]

It just appears tricky to you because you're not into LTD.

Rules always cover rather general things as they are usually based on common sense.

LTD and LIHL rules are, however, always on the nitpicking level 9000 to have each and every possible case covered. If you cant make avion understand the purpose of the rule suggestion, you will have a hard time getting it approved.

[Akitos]

If you cant make avion understand the purpose of the rule suggestion, you will have a hard time getting it approved.

What's there not to understand? Clogging is not as bad as pre 3.41e, yet people started abusing it again -> give us the rule back. Very simple. For those who do not intentionally clog it won't make any difference at all, but it'll make games like the one in my ban request happen less.

And about the rewording: It should simply say that selling value to weaken your defense should be forbidden, doesn't matter at which level.

[MelGibson]

And blue built towers that could pull opposite lane, also simple.

@Akitos,
Hey man, i feel like i have to say something, cause this is like 3rd time u talking about me pulling units.

First of all, i agree with u about this rule (do not sell value..) that its abused a lot. That guy red even said when he sold those units that he will do that for super fast leaks. And i also think, like u, that he deserves to be punished.

2nd of all, u can see in our chat log that i was pretty upset about all that stuff. I was even more upset when i saw my units pulling. I didnt build them so far because of pulling, thats like my standard ea build. I havent pulled at all untill he sold all of his units, which made creeps going not on side, but on mid, actually toward my units.

So, my point is, i agree with the rule abuse, i agree with this red specificly abusing it in this game, but my pulling wasnt intetional at all.

Cheers mate.

[Akitos]

And blue built towers that could pull opposite lane, also simple.

@Akitos,
Hey man, i feel like i have to say something, cause this is like 3rd time u talking about me pulling units.

First of all, i agree with u about this rule (do not sell value..) that its abused a lot. That guy red even said when he sold those units that he will do that for super fast leaks. And i also think, like u, that he deserves to be punished.

2nd of all, u can see in our chat log that i was pretty upset about all that stuff. I was even more upset when i saw my units pulling. I didnt build them so far because of pulling, thats like my standard ea build. I havent pulled at all untill he sold all of his units, which made creeps going not on side, but on mid, actually toward my units.

So, my point is, i agree with the rule abuse, i agree with this red specificly abusing it in this game, but my pulling wasnt intetional at all.

Cheers mate.

I believe you, but imo you should've paused the game and requested a vk on red into draw or smthing imo. At least I would've done that.

[Merex]

So, moving back onto this original topic since it is a suggestion. If I follow correctly, you want the value-racing rule reworded, to what exactly?

Secondly, you want the addition of clogging back into the rules -
-Is Clogging a consistent issue?
-Does it severely break the natural flow of gameplay enough despite having broud3r's re-work of the mid to be added back in the rules.

Last but not least, if your suggestion is serious and you intend to take it serious, I'd like more input. Community of LTD is big, perhaps more could chime in.

@Y0SHI @Guennter @broud3r ?

[Akitos]

So, moving back onto this original topic since it is a suggestion. If I follow correctly, you want the value-racing rule reworded, to what exactly?

Secondly, you want the addition of clogging back into the rules -
-Is Clogging a consistent issue?
-Does it severely break the natural flow of gameplay enough despite having broud3r's re-work of the mid to be added back in the rules.

Last but not least, if your suggestion is serious and you intend to take it serious, I'd like more input. Community of LTD is big, perhaps more could chime in.

@Y0SHI @Guennter @broud3r ?

"Do not sell value; unless it is to increase the holding capacity of your build (e.g. selling a t1 to get gold for a t6)"

Yes, it is in many of my games. Sadly having a "leaker" ("leaker" in quotes because well... most 1,2k players don't seem to know that a leaker doesn't necessarily need to leak pretty much the entire wave... so yeah, they're actually more of a suicider than a leaker) after 10 is quite common these days and I feel like some players don't even try to succeed in the early game, because they can always just go "leaker" if they fuck up..

For the record: It was Halibel, not Broud3r. And yes, clogging is still a thing. Not in the sense that it used to be, but there still is some clogging with the sends as they approach mid, which results in teams dieing first with 20-30 leaks opposed to a team that leaks fucking 60+...

[SLSGuennter]

As far as i experienced (though thats mostly LIHL) it would be better to build useless value and try to kill a low amount of units (not possible to ban this) then selling all your value and leaking fast (possible to ban, but actually a worse strategy, so not worth banning it).
All this only applies if you have no holder anyway. If you have one, trying to kill and survive/slow kingdieing due to low amount of units there seems even better ^^.
So imo its not needed to bring back the old rule.

[Hatedmaru]

As someone wise once said (i believe it was Matdas back then), people tactics for LTD consist on suicide/leaking the most possible, instead of playing to hold their own lane

Although i'm not an 1200 player myself, can't deny that reviewing many of the brqs, you do tend to see that people are actually trying to leak as much they can, trying to clog to win races: Yes you can say that's the idea (Send and race to win), but one thing is sending and whoever leaks first to the king, might be in trouble ... Another is seeing people literally not trying to hold at all, expecting units to clog while moving down to the king, to win the race lols ...

Imo the rule should be applied again (tbh the rule should have never been removed at all, since people always continued to try doing this, simply now its more frequent as Akitos mentioned )

[aRt)Y]

@MickeyTheMousie @Diablo_ @RadiantCrystal @Nore Input, please.

[Nore]

I believe clogging has made a resurgence; the new map definitely reduces it, but does not eliminate it completely. If abused, it can certainly create a disadvantage during a race. Does this mean that the rule should be changed back to "50% recommended value" though? I'm not sure, but in my opinion, it's worth it to take a poll or something. See how the community feels, and make a final decision. I would say if the vast majority agree, then it should be changed.