New LoD Mode

Suggestions will be moved here once processed.

Moderator: Oversight Staff

Sylvanas
Treant Protector
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:56 am
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Sylvanas » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:33 pm

CheW wrote:The only difference between MD and SD is that each team gets same drafts. Still same amount of heroes to pick from and skills, just instead of each player getting a unique draft players 1/6 2/7 3/8 4/9 5/10 share the same drafts (they can still pick differently)

I understand the suggestion, I just don't like the idea of it. Few builds besides rearm phantasm need a specific counter build besides just picking something stronger in general if possible. Also, let's say you have a draft with rearm phantasm, but you also happen to have rearm dominate, which counters it (and does essentially nothing else). Do you get rearm dominate to counter the predictable rearm phantasm? Do you get neither and let the other player pick rearm dominate, who's only practical purpose is to counter rearm phantasm (which you didn't get)? Is it really an improvement for games to essentially be decided via "I think you think" guesswork and coin flips?

2 people with a rearm doom build will typically both get that, or they'll just handicap themselves by picking something weaker. Fully random drafts aren't perfect, but they typically somewhat even out in potential most of the time, which I think is good enough. I think resorting to identical drafts would be sacrificing too much in the name of balancing. The best games happen when you win against much better heroes and the most forgettable ones are those where you go up against something much stronger and predictably lose.

CheW
Protector of Nature
Posts: 3154
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:15 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby CheW » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:58 pm

This is still fully random draft. Just each team has 1 of them. This is because some games there will be 5 mcs vs all bad drafts. Takes out the luck of people just getting a good draft vs bad draft and puts skill into it.
MAGA

Squanto
Aura Tree
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:28 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Squanto » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:00 pm

Sylvanas wrote:
CheW wrote: The best games happen when you win against much better heroes and the most forgettable ones are those where you go up against something much stronger and predictably lose.


I think a lot more fun would be derived from out-playing your opponent while drafting from the same pool or building something that is more creative/effective with the same skills knowing that a form of competitive balance is in effect.

Sylvanas
Treant Protector
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:56 am
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Sylvanas » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:28 pm

CheW wrote:This is still fully random draft. Just each team has 1 of them. This is because some games there will be 5 mcs vs all bad drafts. Takes out the luck of people just getting a good draft vs bad draft and puts skill into it.

It's not fully random if he other team's drafts dictates your own (and vice versa). Random is just random.

Squanto wrote:I think a lot more fun would be derived from out-playing your opponent while drafting from the same pool or building something that is more creative/effective with the same skills knowing that a form of competitive balance is in effect.

I think creativity in lod is ridiculously overblown. People always build the same tried-and-true crap. Some people have certain preferences and know certain tricks that others don't, but it still ends up with the same general builds, just personalized differently. Mirror drafts would often lead to the same general teams of 5 heroes, just personalized differently.

Oh, player 1 likes dispersion and player 2 prefers corrosive skin? Who cares, they still both randomed pulse and bt and made the same hero. Fun.

Squanto
Aura Tree
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:28 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Squanto » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:40 pm

Sylvanas wrote:
CheW wrote:This is still fully random draft. Just each team has 1 of them. This is because some games there will be 5 mcs vs all bad drafts. Takes out the luck of people just getting a good draft vs bad draft and puts skill into it.

It's not fully random if he other team's drafts dictates your own (and vice versa). Random is just random.

Squanto wrote:I think a lot more fun would be derived from out-playing your opponent while drafting from the same pool or building something that is more creative/effective with the same skills knowing that a form of competitive balance is in effect.

I think creativity in lod is ridiculously overblown. People always build the same tried-and-true crap. Some people have certain preferences and know certain tricks that others don't, but it still ends up with the same general builds, just personalized differently. Mirror drafts would often lead to the same general teams of 5 heroes, just personalized differently.

Oh, player 1 likes dispersion and player 2 prefers corrosive skin? Who cares, they still both randomed pulse and bt and made the same hero. Fun.

You're being too trivialized with your thinking. I was in a game not too long ago when MC+Rearm with Wolves and Meta+Conjure beat out a rearm+Phant. Or Rearm+Overgrowth with summon bear and greed that farmed so hard his bear was a stronger carry than most heroes. I think you're buying into everyone being on the same one-track mind. Creativity can be found in most pools, although there is always seemingly one build within the pool that seems to be the outright strongest -- which in reality can be countered if you know someone on the other team may be picking it.

CheW
Protector of Nature
Posts: 3154
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:15 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby CheW » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:53 pm

Most of the other games with Elo on ent are competitive, this makes LoD competitive. If you changed the mode to MD and not SD half the people wouldn't even know the difference.
MAGA

Sylvanas
Treant Protector
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:56 am
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Sylvanas » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:04 am

Squanto wrote:You're being too trivialized with your thinking. I was in a game not too long ago when MC+Rearm with Wolves and Meta+Conjure beat out a rearm+Phant. Or Rearm+Overgrowth with summon bear and greed that farmed so hard his bear was a stronger carry than most heroes. I think you're buying into everyone being on the same one-track mind

Metamorph and conjure image and rearm phantasm aren't mutually exclusive. If you have all that, you can go ahead and pick all of it (and should). So it's not like those 2 players picked differently... They just had different drafts and used what they had to make a hero that will try to win the game by pushing lanes. Same thing goes for the weird ass wolf build that doesn't sound so good to me. Now, what do you think would happen if they had the same draft? They'd pick the same thing, the one that's best and most reliable. The situation you just brought up was made possible by drafts not being mirrored, not the opposite.

Rearm roots greed bear hero sounds like a nice idea, but keep in mind that it requires 4 specific heroes to work and you won't just happen to have one of those hidden in every draft. It's still the same usual boring builds that win every game I see.

Squanto
Aura Tree
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:28 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Squanto » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:54 am

Sylvanas wrote:
Squanto wrote:You're being too trivialized with your thinking. I was in a game not too long ago when MC+Rearm with Wolves and Meta+Conjure beat out a rearm+Phant. Or Rearm+Overgrowth with summon bear and greed that farmed so hard his bear was a stronger carry than most heroes. I think you're buying into everyone being on the same one-track mind

Metamorph and conjure image and rearm phantasm aren't mutually exclusive. If you have all that, you can go ahead and pick all of it (and should). So it's not like those 2 players picked differently... They just had different drafts and used what they had to make a hero that will try to win the game by pushing lanes. Same thing goes for the weird ass wolf build that doesn't sound so good to me. Now, what do you think would happen if they had the same draft? They'd pick the same thing, the one that's best and most reliable. The situation you just brought up was made possible by drafts not being mirrored, not the opposite.

Rearm roots greed bear hero sounds like a nice idea, but keep in mind that it requires 4 specific heroes to work and you won't just happen to have one of those hidden in every draft. It's still the same usual boring builds that win every game I see.


I should have mentioned that the hero with MC did have phantasm in his draft. So in this particular instance, he had the option and declined it for something that suited his play style and out performed the other player. The overriding theme here is while there is only ever going to be a finite number of builds in LoD, even fewer will be effective, but depending on the way a player builds in comparison to another with the same pool can cause huge implications to game-play. I obviously can't convince you to like the mode. However, you seem to always complain about the game being stupid (which appears in a lot of your chat logs), yet are not in favor of a change that would create balance.. so there's really no hope in progressing the conversation here.

Spoiler!
From [ent] lod -sds6bod2fn #26
(36:43 / Allied) Sylvanas: so sick of everything
(36:47 / All) Ergo.Proxy: This game was hosted by GHost++ (www.ghostpp.com).
(36:47) i.go.QQ killed Tamystrike
(36:47 / Allied) Sylvanas: only garbage games endlessly

From [ent] lod -sds6bod2fn #46
(20:38 / Allied) Sylvanas: im so sick of this map in general

(30:03 / Allied) Sylvanas: idiotic map
(30:06 / Allied) Sylvanas: i hate it so much

From [ent] lod -sds6bod2fn #70
(19:19 / Allied) Sylvanas: so sufking sick of this garbage game
(19:25 / Allied) Sylvanas: *fucking


... and that's just some of it...

So if you really don't like the game, why play it or be resistant to change that levels the playing field in general?

Sylvanas
Treant Protector
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:56 am
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Sylvanas » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:12 am

Squanto wrote:
Spoiler!
From [ent] lod -sds6bod2fn #26
(36:43 / Allied) Sylvanas: so sick of everything
(36:47 / All) Ergo.Proxy: This game was hosted by GHost++ (www.ghostpp.com).
(36:47) i.go.QQ killed Tamystrike
(36:47 / Allied) Sylvanas: only garbage games endlessly

From [ent] lod -sds6bod2fn #46
(20:38 / Allied) Sylvanas: im so sick of this map in general

(30:03 / Allied) Sylvanas: idiotic map
(30:06 / Allied) Sylvanas: i hate it so much

From [ent] lod -sds6bod2fn #70
(19:19 / Allied) Sylvanas: so sufking sick of this garbage game
(19:25 / Allied) Sylvanas: *fucking


... and that's just some of it...

So if you really don't like the game, why play it or be resistant to change that levels the playing field in general?

Oh don't worry, I always ask myself. Lod and everything are stuff I certainly hate a lot, but not as much as I make it look. That's just how I express myself. If I hated it as much as I say I do, I wouldn't be playing it. Anyhow, I don't think this change would make me like it more.

Have you forgotten anything else about that mc wolf rearm whatever game that totally happened and which exemplifies why people wouldn't just pick the obvious builds almost all the time? Because they still will and it'll be boring.

CheW
Protector of Nature
Posts: 3154
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:15 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby CheW » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:20 am

Yeah but it will be "boring" and balanced. I'm sure ive played a lot more LoD games than you have and the games where the drafts are completely lopsided must be almost half of them.
MAGA

Squanto
Aura Tree
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:28 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Squanto » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:36 am

Sylvanas wrote: Have you forgotten anything else about that mc wolf rearm whatever game that totally happened and which exemplifies why people wouldn't just pick the obvious builds almost all the time? Because they still will and it'll be boring.


What do you define as boring? More competitive games are more fun.

Sylvanas
Treant Protector
Posts: 974
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:56 am
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby Sylvanas » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:54 am

CheW wrote:Yeah but it will be "boring" and balanced. I'm sure ive played a lot more LoD games than you have and the games where the drafts are completely lopsided must be almost half of them.

I've seen countless teams argue about who outdrafted who (the answer is always the other team). I think it just shows how lopsided they're perceived to be and how they really are two different things. Drafts include enough heroes for the vast majority of them to include something pretty good. Of course mirror eliminates the question entirely, but at cost of variety, which I personally find lacking. Not worth it in my opinion.

User avatar
aRt)Y
Protector of Nature
Posts: 13142
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 9:15 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 174 times
Contact:

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby aRt)Y » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:26 am

To get this right: In both modes you get a limited pool of spells (while with MD, both teams get the same) and not the entire DotA hero spells pool, right?

I am usually quite thoughtful about my wording and it's the same with this suggestion. As the last one was about adding another bot and has been denied, this one is about changing the mode. In general, I am in favor for it.

The arguments of both sides are interesting. One the one hand, MD would "balance" the game in the sense that all start on the same basis. On the other hand, the uniqueness and, perhaps, "fun" moves slightly in the background.

Still, seeing both teams having access to the same "op lod builds" and seeing what they make with it, makes the game interesting and I would be willing to at least change it for a trial phase.

While it is surely some form of a philosophic question, wouldnt the MD spell pool allow you to be just as creative in variety as before? One does not have to pick the "op builds", right? But who wouldnt. Variety and creativity are interesting words in regards to LoD where the majority is picking the same spell combinations all over again anyway.
    Information, Rules, Guides and everything else you need to know about ENT is on the ENT Wiki.
      Ignorantia juris non excusat • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? • Fallacy of composition

CheW
Protector of Nature
Posts: 3154
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:15 pm
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby CheW » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:30 pm

@art)y

In SD each player gets 20 random heroes to choose 6 skills from. In MD, players 1 and 6, 2 and 7, 3 and 8, 4 and 9, 5 and 10 all have the same draft. They still get the 20 random heroes to choose from, they just have the same random heroes as their corresponding player
MAGA

User avatar
aRt)Y
Protector of Nature
Posts: 13142
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 9:15 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 174 times
Contact:

Re: New LoD Mode

Postby aRt)Y » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:43 pm

I see, thanks.

Well, given the support, the new mode will be added for trial.

@hazardous
    Information, Rules, Guides and everything else you need to know about ENT is on the ENT Wiki.
      Ignorantia juris non excusat • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? • Fallacy of composition


Return to “Suggestion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests