Medium-Sized winter map being unable to be hit by troll as elf is already bannable. I dont support banning angels being there - that map already heavily favors troll. Allowing this evens the map a bit, regardless angel stealing gold is not as profitable as another elf with base income
i also disagree with making -gu bannable
i disagree with +1+2 stacking house for income as well fwiw, but sure its income boosting, well then you might as well ban gg and gl since you can boost your teammates, both elves and wolf, to higher income as well. when does the "boost" become acceptable? why is the line drawn with units? as previously mentioned it takes 2 folks and coordination to do so. its not seen that often in games and regardless of the occurence it doesnt seem like it is gamebreaking based on hundreds of games. the people who complain the most are generally the inexperienced folks who cry "cheating"/"glitching"
Do not trap the troll
i also disagree with this statement, i think the rule should be do not trap the troll with more than 1 builder, or "pre-some-level-wall", trapping is a viable strategy and i do not believe it should be banned. youre not catering to the lowest common denominator here, dont have to baby cage the game.
Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.
i disagree with this, sure you can place ur house here but its just a more troll gameplay that sacrifices mid/end game benefit for a little fun. sure you can put your house there but when it becomes later in the game your house is in the open and are no longer as developed as other elves. troll can just ignore this player and focus on other people.
If every elf uses this bug, the troll will be unable to win as he will be stuck on hut income ... if every elf pools gold to the current elf being attacked so he could boost towers so troll unable to feed - and troll would be unable to win as well ... ??? if every elf refuses to base and just sits with a duo base using spells troll would be unable to win as well ... ??? can anyone show some real evidence where this is actually detrimental to a troll that knows what s/he is doing and by just avoiding this instead of just claiming what they "believe"?
Troll & Elves rules.
Moderator: Oversight Staff
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lordmillt4
- Aura Tree
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Re: Troll & Elves rules.
eng wrote:Medium-Sized winter map being unable to be hit by troll as elf is already bannable. I dont support banning angels being there - that map already heavily favors troll. Allowing this evens the map a bit, regardless angel stealing gold is not as profitable as another elf with base income
i also disagree with making -gu bannable
i disagree with +1+2 stacking house for income as well fwiw, but sure its income boosting, well then you might as well ban gg and gl since you can boost your teammates, both elves and wolf, to higher income as well. when does the "boost" become acceptable? why is the line drawn with units? as previously mentioned it takes 2 folks and coordination to do so. its not seen that often in games and regardless of the occurence it doesnt seem like it is gamebreaking based on hundreds of games. the people who complain the most are generally the inexperienced folks who cry "cheating"/"glitching"
Do not trap the troll
i also disagree with this statement, i think the rule should be do not trap the troll with more than 1 builder, or "pre-some-level-wall", trapping is a viable strategy and i do not believe it should be banned. youre not catering to the lowest common denominator here, dont have to baby cage the game.
Do not place structures on ramps which force the troll to use reveal.
i disagree with this, sure you can place ur house here but its just a more troll gameplay that sacrifices mid/end game benefit for a little fun. sure you can put your house there but when it becomes later in the game your house is in the open and are no longer as developed as other elves. troll can just ignore this player and focus on other people.
If every elf uses this bug, the troll will be unable to win as he will be stuck on hut income ... if every elf pools gold to the current elf being attacked so he could boost towers so troll unable to feed - and troll would be unable to win as well ... ??? if every elf refuses to base and just sits with a duo base using spells troll would be unable to win as well ... ??? can anyone show some real evidence where this is actually detrimental to a troll that knows what s/he is doing and by just avoiding this instead of just claiming what they "believe"?
This is pretty much what i wanted to say with my post, I agree with everything eng posted, i know other games thats been ruined by limiting everything so dont ruin tve
Re: Troll & Elves rules.
In fact, I think there are rule on powerful plays (or glitches) that weren't originally excpected in the game or to make everybody's game more enjoyable. It's not because someone is still attackable or because the troll still got win chances that we must allow a glitch / play.
When two players are wall sharing it boosts their gold. And it's very easy for 2 elves with boosted gold to defend their base in such a way that troll can't farm them at all. In my opinion, for the troll, wall sharers are just not attackable until he has a big stuff. So it sort of removes them from the troll's possible targets in early / mid game. Likewise, blocking the ramp with a house removes the player from the troll's target in early - mid game.
Players can be ignored because of some strategy, then the game essence itself is lost because they can't even be scared of the troll.
So here I hear you saying something like "So massing towers should be bannable". The problem, when we mass towers with normal gold, is that we lose a lot gold and income, because of not upgrading the house. If the troll can survive the big towers rush and still hit the wall, he'll probably be ahead because the elf lost lots of time on his towers.
Of course, if all elves help each other by sharing gold and mass towers, it will be almost impossible for the troll to win. But first, elves only do that when they know their opponent is strong, and even if they all know the troll's strengh, elves almost never mass towers or/and share their gold.
I more or less agree on not totally removing the trap. Because when the game is lost it is the last thing we can try, and it's still hard to do if the troll cannot see the wall. I can suggest the following rule for trap : "Do not trap the troll with a wall he can't destroy easily". But "easily" is not clearly defined in my rule... I also thought about "Do not trap the troll with a wall better than the non-upgraded rock." because it allows to put a rock behind the troll and use shield of gods on it. I don't know if you already used this, but it's not easy to do and not OP. However in early game a rock 1 is enough to block the troll. Well, I didn't find any good rule for the trap. The kind of trap I would allow is never used anyway, except by me ^^.
When two players are wall sharing it boosts their gold. And it's very easy for 2 elves with boosted gold to defend their base in such a way that troll can't farm them at all. In my opinion, for the troll, wall sharers are just not attackable until he has a big stuff. So it sort of removes them from the troll's possible targets in early / mid game. Likewise, blocking the ramp with a house removes the player from the troll's target in early - mid game.
Players can be ignored because of some strategy, then the game essence itself is lost because they can't even be scared of the troll.
So here I hear you saying something like "So massing towers should be bannable". The problem, when we mass towers with normal gold, is that we lose a lot gold and income, because of not upgrading the house. If the troll can survive the big towers rush and still hit the wall, he'll probably be ahead because the elf lost lots of time on his towers.
Of course, if all elves help each other by sharing gold and mass towers, it will be almost impossible for the troll to win. But first, elves only do that when they know their opponent is strong, and even if they all know the troll's strengh, elves almost never mass towers or/and share their gold.
I more or less agree on not totally removing the trap. Because when the game is lost it is the last thing we can try, and it's still hard to do if the troll cannot see the wall. I can suggest the following rule for trap : "Do not trap the troll with a wall he can't destroy easily". But "easily" is not clearly defined in my rule... I also thought about "Do not trap the troll with a wall better than the non-upgraded rock." because it allows to put a rock behind the troll and use shield of gods on it. I don't know if you already used this, but it's not easy to do and not OP. However in early game a rock 1 is enough to block the troll. Well, I didn't find any good rule for the trap. The kind of trap I would allow is never used anyway, except by me ^^.
Re: Troll & Elves rules.
Oh cool, we're finally addressing just how terrible the rules are in T&E? Almost everything xikens says here is absolutely correct.. FTR, I'm pretty sure he hates me, but honestly my memory ain't what it used to be. I've been banned for house glitching, so by all means just ignore me and lock me up, but you have to understand that people are less likely to respect rules when they include such nonsense as "don't trap troll twice in a row".
Trapping troll is literally the most gamebreaking thing in the game. If you think it's not easy to do consistently, you're just not experienced/knowledgeable in this area, sorry. Z (blink) b+Z (wall), E+click wall (makes wall invulnerable), upgrade walls (so it won't die after invulnerable), and then you get two spells, both ensnare and silence which can counter troll's TP. Sure a bad elf may mess this up, and a good one might even mess it up once in a blue moon, but short of starting with dogs, this is a completely unfair 0 counter situation for the troll. I have more tools than I need to kill a troll at full HP, nonetheless just blocking him for a couple seconds which is often all it takes if the troll is playing well. The simple rule is: Do not completely block troll's path back to middle with buildings.
Xikens' house ramp glitch is absolutely gamebreaking as you can just ensnare/shield when troll casts FS. All troll can do is basically feed off others and hope he can eventually 1 hit the house. It's an open and shut case, and a nice find Xikens
Can we talk about -stuck? All my personal experience has led me to conclude that spamming this greatly increases the odds of a host of camera, building selection, and double unit bugs to occur. Sure sometimes -stuck is necessary, but there needs to be a PSA about it so people quite spamming this after half a second goes by without the mappicker pressing an arrow key.
No one has mentioned wisps yet? Spamming cheap wisps to block troll is also stupidly effective. I was pretty sure the troll could always overcome this. I was proven wrong. This is on par with trapping troll and needs a hard ban.
Sharing wall/pooling gold to base ally is gameruining for all the reasons xikens mentioned. The advantage you get from this dwarfs house glitching. There's only one person right now I know of who does this frequently (with a second computer next to him to boot). Giving him a small ban for workshop glitch and ignoring this was quite disappointing. Like charging Al Capone for tax fraud.
People intentionally going dog early is a gameruin. Bad bases are balanced by being scouted last, if at all. People picking dog early for perfect scouting info is cancerous.
Banning angels for hiding in the spots behind the huts is ridiculous. It's not controversial. It's absurd.
Look, I don't give the mapmakers for this minigame much credit, but it's preposterous to seriously claim the mapmakers didn't intend for those spots to be used exactly like that. Like are we 1984 doublethink claiming they didn't know that all the units can fit through small spaces except troll??--the entire premise of this game starts with building a base behind 1 wall in such a position.... If that somehow doesn't sway you, as Xikens mentioned the maps that allow this are very deliberate -- they are the 3 hardest maps for elves, where raiding the middle would otherwise be quite difficult for angel. I'm fairly sure the real reason this rule got added way back when was because at some point there was a troll who had never heard of hold position before and so his troll autoed all over the place and he struggled with shopping. The real kicker is this will still happen if elves simply put wisps in those trees, which you see almost every game and is not against the rules.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Time for the Controversial Stuff~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The philosophy used to ban houseglitching/workshops is flawed. "Unintended bug that helps elf = deserves ban" is a mantra I've seen on here with different words over time. Imagine battleships without burning, or sheep tag without golem jumps, or dota without exp deny. Ultimately what matters is whether it's good or bad for gameplay. Some of the most interesting gaming tactics have come from "abusing exploits" in unintended ways.
Workshops are the cheapest building of the larger size, so using it as a partially built obstruction makes sense. It would be worthwhile in that regard even if it built regularly. It's given a slight boost on top of that from the troll not being able to right click it and having to press H. And sure, if the troll doesn't know how to press H, he's going to have a very bad time. But I'd point out that it's friggen 2018, this game is going on 16 years old, and if the troll player doesn't know how to hold position I promise you, he's going to lose quickly regardless. It's a shame that one of the few potential micro moments in this game is blacklisted.
House glitching as was mentioned gives a much smaller income advantage than elves pooling gold/sharing buildings. In fact it gives a smaller advantage than just simply double basing or having an angel. Or on the flip side of the equation, is less impactful than someone going dog, and certainly much less than someone feeding the troll. Also unlike double basing, or pooling, everyone can house glitch, yay equality. Heck it's a lot more balanced than you think. It reveals through burn marks location of base to an observant troll. Sure, not every troll knows about this, but this is largely because banning it has made it taboo and so people are not educated about it. Whether this technique is even beneficial to you depends on map size and your judgment of how good the troll is, and potentially other elves. If you think it's viable, it's just a small minigame elves can play against other elves to gain a minor advantage during the most BORING part of the game. There's even some strategy with where you build the house since a nearby troll prevents it from being destroyed. So you'll want your house to be far from your wall, unless no spot is far enough away and then you just put it where it's most convenient, unless unless you have a sheltered ramp in which case you'd want to build your house in front of the wall. In other words, I'm quite seriously claiming it's a good thing for the game. The reason people hate about it, is that you've made it a rule. The rule followers of the world will be jealous because they feel like they morally can't follow suit and instead will fall behind, so they ban request on the forums. Others would rather go the copycat route than the tattle tail. I'm sure I know which side the mods are on
but the point is, this is a toxic situation that is entirely self-inflicted. Letting everyone house glitch is fun for the whole family. Sure this means people who have played a few times will have an advantage on complete noobs, but this is true of every game ever.
But the main reason I speak out on this is that the status quo is that 90% of the temp bans go out to people for the equivalent of jaywalking while bank robbers are free to go as long as they use the buddy system or only rob the bank once per week. This is an unfortunate state for a game that is inherently unbalanced and not competitive.
Trapping troll is literally the most gamebreaking thing in the game. If you think it's not easy to do consistently, you're just not experienced/knowledgeable in this area, sorry. Z (blink) b+Z (wall), E+click wall (makes wall invulnerable), upgrade walls (so it won't die after invulnerable), and then you get two spells, both ensnare and silence which can counter troll's TP. Sure a bad elf may mess this up, and a good one might even mess it up once in a blue moon, but short of starting with dogs, this is a completely unfair 0 counter situation for the troll. I have more tools than I need to kill a troll at full HP, nonetheless just blocking him for a couple seconds which is often all it takes if the troll is playing well. The simple rule is: Do not completely block troll's path back to middle with buildings.
Xikens' house ramp glitch is absolutely gamebreaking as you can just ensnare/shield when troll casts FS. All troll can do is basically feed off others and hope he can eventually 1 hit the house. It's an open and shut case, and a nice find Xikens
Can we talk about -stuck? All my personal experience has led me to conclude that spamming this greatly increases the odds of a host of camera, building selection, and double unit bugs to occur. Sure sometimes -stuck is necessary, but there needs to be a PSA about it so people quite spamming this after half a second goes by without the mappicker pressing an arrow key.
No one has mentioned wisps yet? Spamming cheap wisps to block troll is also stupidly effective. I was pretty sure the troll could always overcome this. I was proven wrong. This is on par with trapping troll and needs a hard ban.
Sharing wall/pooling gold to base ally is gameruining for all the reasons xikens mentioned. The advantage you get from this dwarfs house glitching. There's only one person right now I know of who does this frequently (with a second computer next to him to boot). Giving him a small ban for workshop glitch and ignoring this was quite disappointing. Like charging Al Capone for tax fraud.
People intentionally going dog early is a gameruin. Bad bases are balanced by being scouted last, if at all. People picking dog early for perfect scouting info is cancerous.
Banning angels for hiding in the spots behind the huts is ridiculous. It's not controversial. It's absurd.
Look, I don't give the mapmakers for this minigame much credit, but it's preposterous to seriously claim the mapmakers didn't intend for those spots to be used exactly like that. Like are we 1984 doublethink claiming they didn't know that all the units can fit through small spaces except troll??--the entire premise of this game starts with building a base behind 1 wall in such a position.... If that somehow doesn't sway you, as Xikens mentioned the maps that allow this are very deliberate -- they are the 3 hardest maps for elves, where raiding the middle would otherwise be quite difficult for angel. I'm fairly sure the real reason this rule got added way back when was because at some point there was a troll who had never heard of hold position before and so his troll autoed all over the place and he struggled with shopping. The real kicker is this will still happen if elves simply put wisps in those trees, which you see almost every game and is not against the rules.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Time for the Controversial Stuff~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The philosophy used to ban houseglitching/workshops is flawed. "Unintended bug that helps elf = deserves ban" is a mantra I've seen on here with different words over time. Imagine battleships without burning, or sheep tag without golem jumps, or dota without exp deny. Ultimately what matters is whether it's good or bad for gameplay. Some of the most interesting gaming tactics have come from "abusing exploits" in unintended ways.
Workshops are the cheapest building of the larger size, so using it as a partially built obstruction makes sense. It would be worthwhile in that regard even if it built regularly. It's given a slight boost on top of that from the troll not being able to right click it and having to press H. And sure, if the troll doesn't know how to press H, he's going to have a very bad time. But I'd point out that it's friggen 2018, this game is going on 16 years old, and if the troll player doesn't know how to hold position I promise you, he's going to lose quickly regardless. It's a shame that one of the few potential micro moments in this game is blacklisted.
House glitching as was mentioned gives a much smaller income advantage than elves pooling gold/sharing buildings. In fact it gives a smaller advantage than just simply double basing or having an angel. Or on the flip side of the equation, is less impactful than someone going dog, and certainly much less than someone feeding the troll. Also unlike double basing, or pooling, everyone can house glitch, yay equality. Heck it's a lot more balanced than you think. It reveals through burn marks location of base to an observant troll. Sure, not every troll knows about this, but this is largely because banning it has made it taboo and so people are not educated about it. Whether this technique is even beneficial to you depends on map size and your judgment of how good the troll is, and potentially other elves. If you think it's viable, it's just a small minigame elves can play against other elves to gain a minor advantage during the most BORING part of the game. There's even some strategy with where you build the house since a nearby troll prevents it from being destroyed. So you'll want your house to be far from your wall, unless no spot is far enough away and then you just put it where it's most convenient, unless unless you have a sheltered ramp in which case you'd want to build your house in front of the wall. In other words, I'm quite seriously claiming it's a good thing for the game. The reason people hate about it, is that you've made it a rule. The rule followers of the world will be jealous because they feel like they morally can't follow suit and instead will fall behind, so they ban request on the forums. Others would rather go the copycat route than the tattle tail. I'm sure I know which side the mods are on
but the point is, this is a toxic situation that is entirely self-inflicted. Letting everyone house glitch is fun for the whole family. Sure this means people who have played a few times will have an advantage on complete noobs, but this is true of every game ever. But the main reason I speak out on this is that the status quo is that 90% of the temp bans go out to people for the equivalent of jaywalking while bank robbers are free to go as long as they use the buddy system or only rob the bank once per week. This is an unfortunate state for a game that is inherently unbalanced and not competitive.
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HazarDous
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Re: Troll & Elves rules.
"Do not use the command "-gu" to exchange walls with other elves." denied.
Rest approved.
http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?tit ... g:TnERules
Rest approved.
http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?tit ... g:TnERules
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