I agree with Nabo. and others that it should be disabled before 10 minutes. Why? Well after reading through the responses I only have a couple thoughts to add:
First, 10 minutes is a really short time. Often it takes 10 minutes to even find a semi even game. It really upsets me when I wait like 10 to 15 minutes to play, and either team gives up in like 5 minutes.
How can you expect people to learn mid game strategy such as ward/counter, tele stomp, jungle / pull, and team pushes/counter if they learn that all dota games are determined by the first 1-10 minutes?
Also, you have to consider what peer pressure does to this situation. Many times I have been in a game where the high elo of one team is not doing well, and crys for ff before 10 mins and b/c many people value elo so much they believe it is true and ff.
Honestly, in a game with 4-5 people on each team I have only seen one time where the game was certainly lost and ff before 10 mins was reasonable. But it was a random game with a very good and very fed bloodseeker who was 7-0 at 8 mins and the other team had no carry. Even then, though, is it TOO unreasonable for them to base sit for 2 more minutes and then FF??? I think not. It's 10 minutes people.
15 may be a little too long. I do see the point that if a team wants to ff then they should be able to. And yes I agree with edge and others that if 5 players all ff there is probably a good reason, AT AROUND 10 MINUTES. Things can change, but if it is a massacre at the 10 min point or a little beyond it probably will not change in a pub. But before 10 is ridiculous in most games the game cannot be decided the majority of cases by then
!ff = 10min
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FlowerSnow
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Re: !ff = 10min
uakf.b wrote:If you are concerned about your team forfeiting before ten minutes, then don't !ff? If you are concerned about the other team forfeiting, well, that's their problem. It's also less disrespectful than fountain farming for five minutes and wasting everyone's time.
!support uakf.b's!
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xd.heen , how.heen.kr , Zombie[Pein]
2007. Top2 in WCG . 1st in ADC
after 2007 my dota skill is getting fucked
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjLM9U8EsX4
xd.heen , how.heen.kr , Zombie[Pein]
2007. Top2 in WCG . 1st in ADC
after 2007 my dota skill is getting fucked
Team Korea. how.korea. Bbj. Mineski. Mski.kr
Re: !ff = 10min
Nothing more aggravating than to see your teammates forfeit early on in the game and then proceed to fountain sit or farm the jungle until the game is over; instead of actually trying to make a comeback.
In favor of this idea.
In favor of this idea.
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EdgeOfChaos
Re: !ff = 10min
Warning: This is quite a long post
@Dust
Except that, dust, this will not prevent allies from giving up or fountain sitting, it will only prevent them from using the !ff command. It's quite possible to !ff then continue to play when you see your allies won't ff too, and it's also quite possible to go sit in the fountain without !ffing first.
@swimr4life
How can it take 15 minutes to find a game? Which bot are you playing?
The challenge still stands btw. Find a game where a team !ffd in 10- minutes. I guarantee you there will be a really good reason for why they did, not just rage FFing.
How can you say that allowing ff before 10 mins = all games are decided in 10 minutes? That makes no sense. Maybe .1% of all games would be forfeited in 10- minutes.
Who cares about peer pressure in a video game? It's not hard to !ignore the guy asking you to ff and move on. No one is forcing you to ff, and ff is only ever done if all 5 players choose to.
To be honest, I disagree: it depends on how far back you can trace the loss. I've seen many games where the game was decided in 10 minutes. Few, though, where the game was !ffd in 10 minutes.
@nabo
You're still ignoring my point. You say that the way a game was "intended to be played" is best, yet WarCraft III was never "intended to be played" on bots, but I don't see you boycotting ENT. The way the game was intended to be played is not always the best. DotA was never "intended" to have a votekick feature, or IceFrog would have written it in himself, but I don't see many bots taking out that because it's the "natural" way to play.
What some other dumb game is doing, i don't care about. dota 2 can have a 9999 minute ff restriction for all they want, it's irrelevant to what we do on ENT, because we are not Dota 2, lol, or something else like that. LoD is also a completely different game than dota.
Stacking works, that's why people do it. the elo gain/elo loss thing does not balance out stacking when you're using a smurf, or like some do, using someone who intentionally lose tons of games then stack with you to let you gain more elo. It is relevant to the topic about 10 minute !ff because the only reason a team will ff so early is when their players are FAR worse than the players on the other team (i.e. a stacked game), so that is why I said that if you don't want people to 10 min ff vs you, do not stack games vs them. This shouldn't really be a big deal, i mentioned it in passing in my first post, wasn't even the main focus.
I don't see how some guy ffing early diminishes team play. Ff is only a command to communicate that you think the game is done, and to get others to quit the game at the same time as you. Disabling ff won't make people "not give up". Just instead of typing !ff, they'll type "FUCK YOU ALL I'M DONE" and go sit in fountain.
@Dust
Except that, dust, this will not prevent allies from giving up or fountain sitting, it will only prevent them from using the !ff command. It's quite possible to !ff then continue to play when you see your allies won't ff too, and it's also quite possible to go sit in the fountain without !ffing first.
@swimr4life
First, 10 minutes is a really short time. Often it takes 10 minutes to even find a semi even game. It really upsets me when I wait like 10 to 15 minutes to play, and either team gives up in like 5 minutes.
How can it take 15 minutes to find a game? Which bot are you playing?
The challenge still stands btw. Find a game where a team !ffd in 10- minutes. I guarantee you there will be a really good reason for why they did, not just rage FFing.
How can you expect people to learn mid game strategy such as ward/counter, tele stomp, jungle / pull, and team pushes/counter if they learn that all dota games are determined by the first 1-10 minutes?
How can you say that allowing ff before 10 mins = all games are decided in 10 minutes? That makes no sense. Maybe .1% of all games would be forfeited in 10- minutes.
Also, you have to consider what peer pressure does to this situation. Many times I have been in a game where the high elo of one team is not doing well, and crys for ff before 10 mins and b/c many people value elo so much they believe it is true and ff.
Who cares about peer pressure in a video game? It's not hard to !ignore the guy asking you to ff and move on. No one is forcing you to ff, and ff is only ever done if all 5 players choose to.
Honestly, in a game with 4-5 people on each team I have only seen one time where the game was certainly lost and ff before 10 mins was reasonable. But it was a random game with a very good and very fed bloodseeker who was 7-0 at 8 mins and the other team had no carry. Even then, though, is it TOO unreasonable for them to base sit for 2 more minutes and then FF??? I think not. It's 10 minutes people.
To be honest, I disagree: it depends on how far back you can trace the loss. I've seen many games where the game was decided in 10 minutes. Few, though, where the game was !ffd in 10 minutes.
@nabo
I said its how the game was intended to be played. Objective: destroy enemy base=win. I remember few years ago when there was no !ff but still many bots around...game experience was still great and better. People played the game, there were comebacks and turnovers... Nowadays, there are still a lot of games finishing with the base dying^^ isnt that natural enough?
You're still ignoring my point. You say that the way a game was "intended to be played" is best, yet WarCraft III was never "intended to be played" on bots, but I don't see you boycotting ENT. The way the game was intended to be played is not always the best. DotA was never "intended" to have a votekick feature, or IceFrog would have written it in himself, but I don't see many bots taking out that because it's the "natural" way to play.
Not that I play dota lod, but if there are problems ofc there are ways to fix things. dota lod get updated, contacting map maker or tweaking map if possible. And so, are there problems with !ff being at 10min for dota lod?
Since dotacash dota2 dotalod lol all have !ff time restrictions, why do you suppose they do?
What some other dumb game is doing, i don't care about. dota 2 can have a 9999 minute ff restriction for all they want, it's irrelevant to what we do on ENT, because we are not Dota 2, lol, or something else like that. LoD is also a completely different game than dota.
I dont understand. Why stacking is a consequence? We have a stats system: elo. If you have high elo avg team, you will get little elo. If you have low elo avg team, you will get high elo as reward. If there is a system in placed...why does it matter who plays with who? There are clear difference in point system being earned. Point system is calculated fairly.
I can say that: stacking issue has little to do with !ff time restriction.
Yes, it looks like it is hard to have a matching system for ent dota games. Yes, there are rules to try making game experiences nice and fair. The accumulated efforts are appluadable. Thank you ENT.
Stacking works, that's why people do it. the elo gain/elo loss thing does not balance out stacking when you're using a smurf, or like some do, using someone who intentionally lose tons of games then stack with you to let you gain more elo. It is relevant to the topic about 10 minute !ff because the only reason a team will ff so early is when their players are FAR worse than the players on the other team (i.e. a stacked game), so that is why I said that if you don't want people to 10 min ff vs you, do not stack games vs them. This shouldn't really be a big deal, i mentioned it in passing in my first post, wasn't even the main focus.
Hurt? I never said !ff is a bad command to begin with. It is needed, but having it available too early diminishes game play and player/team mentality. As Soju and some others stated, we wanted to point out that a game should be played at least 10 minutes(even 15) to really tell whether your team can counterback or win the game. People should not give up too early. Making better choices, more teamwork, better items, farming good, ganking...there are so many things you can do individually/as a team to overcome scenarios. 0-15 feeding is an extreme case and ban requests exists for such cases, but most !ff due to teammate feeding or blaming is due to 1-5 deaths. These deaths can be critical, but you can certainly overcome this difference as you play the game bit longer (one gank makes huge difference).
The matter of !ff's necessity or restriction has been discussed on many forums in the past...you can try googling a few...
I don't see how some guy ffing early diminishes team play. Ff is only a command to communicate that you think the game is done, and to get others to quit the game at the same time as you. Disabling ff won't make people "not give up". Just instead of typing !ff, they'll type "FUCK YOU ALL I'M DONE" and go sit in fountain.
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child
Re: !ff = 10min
@edgeofchaos
Well, lol, i play a lot from 3 am to 6 am est and that takes a good 10-15 mins for a arem or sdem game to fill. its true for sure, sometimes sdem doesnt fill for longer. not everyone is f'd up like me on US and the chinese are mostly gone.. Also I said semi even, even during rush hour a little under 1/2 of the games are stupid stacks in arem and sdem
Also what i meant by noobs learning that the game is over, is that so many times I see a game going very badly and the noob will cry gg or spam !ff at 5 mins. or they will just go to jungle. they come to learn that early game = the end result when people are ffing at under 10 mins or just over. It's even worse when a high elo player does this because in my personal experience if the high elo guy is !ffing at 5 mins the noobs just follow suit. Peer pressure was the wrong term, following the herd or conceding to the "leader" would be more appropriate.
I actually agree that at 15 mins FF should be allowed. I will try to find some games right now that prove my point above.
Well, lol, i play a lot from 3 am to 6 am est and that takes a good 10-15 mins for a arem or sdem game to fill. its true for sure, sometimes sdem doesnt fill for longer. not everyone is f'd up like me on US and the chinese are mostly gone.. Also I said semi even, even during rush hour a little under 1/2 of the games are stupid stacks in arem and sdem
Also what i meant by noobs learning that the game is over, is that so many times I see a game going very badly and the noob will cry gg or spam !ff at 5 mins. or they will just go to jungle. they come to learn that early game = the end result when people are ffing at under 10 mins or just over. It's even worse when a high elo player does this because in my personal experience if the high elo guy is !ffing at 5 mins the noobs just follow suit. Peer pressure was the wrong term, following the herd or conceding to the "leader" would be more appropriate.
I actually agree that at 15 mins FF should be allowed. I will try to find some games right now that prove my point above.
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nabo.
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Re: !ff = 10min
EdgeOfChaos wrote:You're still ignoring my point. You say that the way a game was "intended to be played" is best, yet WarCraft III was never "intended to be played" on bots, but I don't see you boycotting ENT. The way the game was intended to be played is not always the best. DotA was never "intended" to have a votekick feature, or IceFrog would have written it in himself, but I don't see many bots taking out that because it's the "natural" way to play.
When did I say its best? Plz quote me on tat. I said it was the natural way how the game was intended to be played(How you win? destroy base). I never asked to remove !ff completely. I simple asked for a condition change? Boycott ENT for bots? .......the idea of bots usage was not very welcoming by bnet. Back then people including me hosted manually a lot and via their own bots too.
+About bots....there were actually a lot of complaints before about bots from people because bots "spammed" or "occupied" the whole gamelist continuesly refreshing the game slots. You tell me...if you host normally on wc3, is your game easily visible?........................... Big game hosts like ENT has dominated the gamelist. I am a ENT user so I am not complaining, but I am merely saying that me boycotting wont fix or change shit. There are goods and bads of having bots. Bots do help balance technical issues like delay and allow multi-realm hosting. Blizzard doesnt care about custom games, only bnet games. (Why are we discussing this matter? off topic)
!ff !votekick are for people who cant stay and play the game =] I prefer to play the game over !ff and I dont like kicking people off the game either. I am not sure if you played dota while there were no !ff and !votekicks...but dota games were running fine.
EdgeOfChaos wrote:What some other dumb game is doing, i don't care about. dota 2 can have a 9999 minute ff restriction for all they want, it's irrelevant to what we do on ENT, because we are not Dota 2, lol, or something else like that. LoD is also a completely different game than dota.
You are more ignorant than I thought. I get that ENT has its uniqueness, but saying you dont care wtf other similar or almost same root games do.......those game do very much impact dota1 community......
EdgeOfChaos wrote:Stacking works, that's why people do it. the elo gain/elo loss thing does not balance out stacking when you're using a smurf, or like some do, using someone who intentionally lose tons of games then stack with you to let you gain more elo. It is relevant to the topic about 10 minute !ff because the only reason a team will ff so early is when their players are FAR worse than the players on the other team (i.e. a stacked game), so that is why I said that if you don't want people to 10 min ff vs you, do not stack games vs them. This shouldn't really be a big deal, i mentioned it in passing in my first post, wasn't even the main focus.
You are only talkin in one scenario. For you, all 10minute before !ff games are stacked games. But, I disagree. There are many games that are not stacked and still !ff early. If i play alone and i pwn so hard and people ff before 10 minutes and i get you many replays, will this change anything? no...but I assure you I had many of these games which is why I post this suggestion. I
Also, the concept of "feeding" is a very subjective matter. Some are ofc obvious, but one person thinking another is feeding may think so just because that person is losing during his lane phase leading to too early judgement of the game and !ff too early when you actually have the possibility to win the game?
If smurfing is an issue, why dont you fix this? I dont even know why you're talking about some noob ass who loses on purpose to feed his friend. I have seen suggestions about making one account allowed for one person...never seen this go pass. Smurfing/snipping certainly misrepresents a player's stats, but for fuk sake...its just a number. The stats you see in lobby should only be an estimate of how people play.....I usually play with one or two more person with me because it is boring to play with a full team.
EdgeOfChaos wrote:I don't see how some guy ffing early diminishes team play. Ff is only a command to communicate that you think the game is done, and to get others to quit the game at the same time as you. Disabling ff won't make people "not give up". Just instead of typing !ff, they'll type "FUCK YOU ALL I'M DONE" and go sit in fountain.
"you think game is done" vs "game is ACTUALLY done" are different. Games before 10 minutes should not be totally over. As many have agreed...there are ways to come back and counter measures you can pull off. Instead of giving up and giving the technical option to do so...why not let them stay 5min-10min longer and see if they can fight back? If there are bar standards, dont people try to follow it or adjust their act or behaviour accordingly? Arent restrictions/laws/standards in placed in our society for a reason? Some fail some work......Why not give this a try? Despite few disagreements, I see more agreements? In general, does this suggestion hurt the game experience of this community?
+(You say Dota2, LOL, DOTA LOD are completely different games compared to DOTA1? I can find more similarities than differences....?) I ASK FOR THE 3rd TIME, are there complaints and problems with dota lod having !ff at 10min?
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EdgeOfChaos
Re: !ff = 10min
You are more ignorant than I thought. I get that ENT has its uniqueness, but saying you dont care wtf other similar or almost same root games do.......those game do very much impact dota1 community......
Yeah. I really don't care. I don't like dota 2 or lol, they can do w/e they want.
Just because others are doing it doesn't mean it's automatically a good idea.
You are only talkin in one scenario. For you, all 10minute before !ff games are stacked games. But, I disagree. There are many games that are not stacked and still !ff early. If i play alone and i pwn so hard and people ff before 10 minutes and i get you many replays, will this change anything? no...but I assure you I had many of these games which is why I post this suggestion. I dont get why we are arguing so much when this is a matter of opinion and how many people agree. You have clearly stated your argument and disagreed.
If smurfing is an issue, why dont you fix this? I dont even know why you're talking about some noob ass who loses on purpose to feed his friend. I have seen suggestions about making one account allowed for one person...never seen this go pass. Smurfing/snipping certainly misrepresents a player's stats, but for fuk sake...its just a number. The stats you see in lobby should only be an estimate of how people play.....I usually play with one or two more person with me because it is boring to play with a full team.
Provide one replay of 10 minute ff. I'll show you why the game was unfair.
"you think game is done" vs "game is ACTUALLY done" are different. Games before 10 minutes should not be totally over. As many have agreed...there are ways to come back and counter measures you can pull off. Instead of giving up and giving the technical option to do so...why not let them stay 5min-10min longer and see if they can fight back? If there are bar standards, dont people try to follow it or adjust their act or behaviour accordingly? Arent restrictions/laws/standards in placed in our society for a reason? Some fail some work......Why not give this a try? Despite few disagreements, I see more agreements? In general, does this suggestion hurt the game experience of this community?
And if one single player on the team thinks they can come back, they are perfectly able to stop the forfeit vote. I fail to see the problem with 10 minute forfeit.
+(You say Dota2, LOL, DOTA LOD are completely different games compared to DOTA1? I can find more similarities than differences....?) I ASK FOR THE 3rd TIME, are there complaints and problems with dota lod having !ff at 10min?
I'll point out what makes them different games.
DotA 2 - Independent platform, matchmaking system (this is why it's a different game)
LoL - Game plays out completely different than dota. Independent platform, different heroes, etc.
LoD - Abilities are picked. Completely different map than DotA, different map maker.
As for the 10 min ff limit - It's a different game, and I doubt anyone cares enough to complain about it. I do have a problem with it though, so I guess yeah.
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nabo.
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Re: !ff = 10min
I guess I asked too much or agued too much for you to answer them all?
Anyway,
-Bots...so much to debate about.
-Smurf/stack so much to debate about. Due to having no match system, it is a problem in a way. But as a note for my case alone...for those who have high elo, it is kinda unfair that too many of the general players have low elo or go on snipe accounts. So if there is a way to only have 1-3 accounts per person, ill welcome this idea any day. If there are people 2k+ who are willing to play on fair grounds, i welcome it. But 1-3elo gain games are bit unfair no? Just saying one of the reasons why I stop playing high elo account and just play for fun or smurf my friends. Playing with friends I cannot change that, I mostly play with my clanmates. Stacking elo one side? I dont want that, but truth is...there just arent enough high elo ppl to actively play against. Believe me, I know when a game is unfair or unbalance. You dont need to show me that. But, hey...there is never a perfect balance.
-I didnt say they dont have differences. I said there are more similarities than differences. Anyway there are strong relations between all games, that is why it matters or make sense to me and many others.
-I feel like Im spamming and repeating myself over and over. I think we discussed enough of the both sides of the argument for this suggestion. So lets let this suggestion pend and see the responses of the community?
GG
Anyway,
-Bots...so much to debate about.
-Smurf/stack so much to debate about. Due to having no match system, it is a problem in a way. But as a note for my case alone...for those who have high elo, it is kinda unfair that too many of the general players have low elo or go on snipe accounts. So if there is a way to only have 1-3 accounts per person, ill welcome this idea any day. If there are people 2k+ who are willing to play on fair grounds, i welcome it. But 1-3elo gain games are bit unfair no? Just saying one of the reasons why I stop playing high elo account and just play for fun or smurf my friends. Playing with friends I cannot change that, I mostly play with my clanmates. Stacking elo one side? I dont want that, but truth is...there just arent enough high elo ppl to actively play against. Believe me, I know when a game is unfair or unbalance. You dont need to show me that. But, hey...there is never a perfect balance.
-I didnt say they dont have differences. I said there are more similarities than differences. Anyway there are strong relations between all games, that is why it matters or make sense to me and many others.
-I feel like Im spamming and repeating myself over and over. I think we discussed enough of the both sides of the argument for this suggestion. So lets let this suggestion pend and see the responses of the community?
GG
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EdgeOfChaos
Re: !ff = 10min
I was actually in a rush to finish my post because I had to go. I answered what I consider the most important, though I can go point by point and address everything now if you still want me to.
I'll summarize my positions about those points too:
-IDC about bots, I think they're absolutely good. I was just giving a comparison, showing that wc3 is not played "the way it was meant to be played" by Blizzard. This was in order to make the point that it's not necessarily best to play a game the way it was "meant to be played"
-IMO, most games that are ended early are ended early because the game was very unfair, and I think that if everyone stopped stacking, 99% of 10min games would be longer. There are some exceptions like the top 10 who skew the elo w/l no matter what.. but even then, looking through a lot of your games, there weren't any 10 minute ones. It's all 20-40 ones. So the challenge persists: find me one 10 minute ff game, I just want to see how unfair it was.
-The differences are important, so much so that you can't compare one feature for another. You say that LoD has 10 minute ff so we should have 10 minute ff on regular. Well, LoD also has ability choosing, so why shouldn't we be able to choose our abilities on regular? This is obviously a ridiculous example, but the point still stands. Other games doing it doesn't mean we should.
-Same here. Okay, I'll agree, I'll stop posting here and let everyone decide, I've already said what I have to say in previous posts.
I'll summarize my positions about those points too:
-IDC about bots, I think they're absolutely good. I was just giving a comparison, showing that wc3 is not played "the way it was meant to be played" by Blizzard. This was in order to make the point that it's not necessarily best to play a game the way it was "meant to be played"
-IMO, most games that are ended early are ended early because the game was very unfair, and I think that if everyone stopped stacking, 99% of 10min games would be longer. There are some exceptions like the top 10 who skew the elo w/l no matter what.. but even then, looking through a lot of your games, there weren't any 10 minute ones. It's all 20-40 ones. So the challenge persists: find me one 10 minute ff game, I just want to see how unfair it was.
-The differences are important, so much so that you can't compare one feature for another. You say that LoD has 10 minute ff so we should have 10 minute ff on regular. Well, LoD also has ability choosing, so why shouldn't we be able to choose our abilities on regular? This is obviously a ridiculous example, but the point still stands. Other games doing it doesn't mean we should.
-Same here. Okay, I'll agree, I'll stop posting here and let everyone decide, I've already said what I have to say in previous posts.
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