Change Rules regarding Livestreaming

[Akitos]

What the fuck is wrong with you people?! When a man touches the ass of a woman wearing a short skirt, that's obviously the fault of the woman for dressing like this right? But when a man touches the ass of a woman who wears jeans, then that's sexual abuse and the man is to blame! Before you call this a bad example think about it like this: Twitch is a short skirt, while the jeans are the warcraft 3 engine. Obviously it's much easier to touch the butt when a woman is wearing a short skirt (going on twitch), instead of having to get through the jeans first (maphacking); YET BOTH IS WRONG AND NOT THE FAULT OF THE WOMAN/STREAMER/DEVELOPER! The only fucking difference is that it's easier to do! That's no reason to blame the god damn streamer D: What if a game is poorly scripted and hacking is super fucking easy so that everyone can do it in a heartbeat? Then hacking is fine right? We don't ban the hackers, WE BAN THE DEVELOPERS INSTEAD BECAUSE THEY GAVE US SUCH AN EASY WAY TO DO IT! Now that's what i call justice! GOOD JOB ENT STAFF! You should be going on your knees and thank streamers for bringing so much attention to an old game like this instead!

I won't bother commenting all the stupid arguments against streaming, but i can't ignore this one, which is by far the dumbest ever.

"It would also be peoples choice to !ignore all enemy in order to not get any ghost-informations. Yet, if somebody ghosts, only he and not all the people reading the chat are getting banned. Imo its same with streaming. You are leaking information about your team by free will, so you are responsible for it." - Guennter

How exactly can you compare giving information directly and purposely to the enemy team with streaming?! Did you even think before you wrote such bullshit? If you're comparing those two, WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER, you might aswell compared it with the game engine. Damn, this silly engine is also leaking information to every enemy by free will, sheeet, people could read this information using a maphack. We can't ban the maphacker because the engine shared those information, sorry. Do you see how dumb this is?! Streaming is the fucking same. Streaming is like the game engine and the only difference is that you're not reading it with a maphack, but instead you use a web browser for it!!!

#savestreaming
#permabansnipers


EDIT - Sorry for capslock and offensive language here and then, but as you may have noticed i am insanely upset about this... I took over a day to even get myself to post here, because i couldn't believe what i saw at first... I was NEVER before this disappointed with the ent staff... You guys used to do such a good job, but in this regard you're acting so wrong D:

[Jabba41]

Uhm no the women wears nothing to hide it and screams "TOUCH ME IF YOU WANT!!!!!" [hint: this women is twitch]

When you MH one guy is responsible for it as he uses it. When we talk about streams you need someone who streams the game first and make it possible to do so. It's something different from using maphack.


Something we should remember is that such cases in which someone ghosts a stream are very very rare.

After reading all this IMO we can allow the streamers to keep on streaming and ban the guy who uses the stream.

The use of any utility (FCD, maphack, etc.) that gives you an unfair advantage over other players will result in a heavy ban.

For the moment it should be finde when they keep on streaming. BUT if the abuse of this increase too bad i think a heavy delay is madatory for it.
And as it is with MH in LTD you cant proof it without the user making mistakes. Same goes for streaming, just that it's even harder here.

But we should make a rule explicit about this so people dont say "it's not very clear" and "he's the one who provides the information not me" blah.

That's just my opinion.

[Hatedmaru]

Have to agree with the majority here: While both the streamer / players who use stream advantage to get info are at their own fault (One for streaming, the others for using it), it seems a bit excessive imo (considering the low amount of brqs caused by it), to ban the streamers at the moment.

As the rules state

The use of any utility (FCD, maphack, etc.) that gives you an unfair advantage over other players will result in a heavy ban.

So same idea applies: One does not maphack without having the intention to get/use it, and stream woulnd't be a problem either if people dind't try to use it for their advantage.

However this is a very grey area, since proving the usage of it, is not a black or white situation (+ it can easily be misinterpreted as maphack), so that is something to keep in mind (However this will be the user's fault, same goes for FCD usage ingame - FCD gives just as much information as maphack), so it will be judged case by case.

tl;dr At the moment, and considering the low amount of cases so far, i believe the rules are pretty clear on it:

[*]The usage of any utility (Twich is an utility, so no need to mention it) already covers it.

[*] Regarding the streamers, i believe for now, streaming should be allowed without a delay (Honestly streaming with delay is the same as watching replays on youtube, there's nothing different from it and you won't have the same entertainment as interacting with the streamer/other viewers, from it - Personally i'm a fan of pyro streams =p started watching in the last Legion TD tournament ^^ and the fun part of streaming is seeing it "live" and interact with the streamer/viewers about it): If in the future, the amount of cases/brqs starts increasing, it can justify to place a delay on it (since the streamer can be considered a culprit as well in it, for streaming), but for now, i dont think its necessary

[Alopex]

Interesting topic.

I myself started playing wc3 (specifically LTD) because of the streams of Pyro, Creative (LF) and Broud3r.
Personally, i find it mind boggeling how the moderators in this topic interpret the rules

My opinion:
Concerning regular gamers
People are in the game and because of that generate certain information.
If someone maphacks, they gain acces to information they should not have access to through the use of a tool (maphack) and should be banned.

Concerning streamers
People are in the game and because of that generate the same information.
If someone watches their stream, they gain acces to information they should not have access to through the use of a tool (twitch) and should be banned.

Whether they stream or not, the information is generated either way, and as Hyo explains very adequatly: the 'snipers' use an utility in order to acquire this information (wether its maphack or sniping on twitch). So in both cases, THE person actively acquiring information he / she shouldn't have access to should be BANNED.

Ofcourse this is only possible when there is proof (which is no doubt very hard), but in no way should a streamer be punished.
Also mentioned before, implementing delay is very hurtful for the entertainment value and negatively inlfuence the exposure LTD gets (it would frustrate me and i would probably stop watching their streams when they stream LTD, and watch when they stream other custom games).

Kind regards,
Leon

[aRt)Y]

Ofcourse this is only possible when there is proof (which is no doubt very hard), but in no way should a streamer be punished.

The ban will be based on suspicious behavior.

All in all, well written post which kinda sums up ENT's position towards the subject.

[nabo.]

Stream with delay or be at risk of giving an unfair advantage to your opposition team. Whether someone takes stream info and whether it will be banned as an unfair advantage will depend whether the OP of the brq can prove he/she took advantage of your streaming (general rule).

Putting delay is for the best of everyone. ENT encourages streaming, but seeing that you are using 3rd party programs that are outside our control, you are responsible for the information you leak. If someone reports you for your stream and a game they lost due to it, we will warn you/advice to delay. Although we have no rules or considered making a rule concerning streaming, I do think you are responsible of your activities when it negatively affects others.

[skibbel]

Streaming with big delay is not fun at all to watch, comments/questions are a big part of it (see reasons 1st page).

I really hope you rethink your decisions regarding this.
So here my suggestion:

You could just make it a rule that streamers have to announce in lobby that they are streaming. Then their team can then decide on their own if they want to play with a streamer or not. If the majority of team doesn't want to play with him, the streamer has to leave the team.

[nabo.]

Hmmm, interesting suggestion.

What if I dont mind (agree to play) and I watch the stream and I dont say nothing?

[skibbel]

If you're on the streamers team and enemy watches, you took the risk by agreeing to play.

If you're on the enemy team, you're an asshole which will most likely not be caught Ofc ppl abuse it, but therefore the streamer's elo should usually be lower the their actual skill which will compensate it to some point.

[nabo.]

Sorry, "you are an asshole" is usually not enough to satisfy most people who report or post a ban request.

So, I do not think your solution is best.

[Retku]

Do I understand this correctly. So the streamer gets 1st warned and then punished for 2nd time if the team loses because of someone on the opposite team cheating? What about the cheater then? Dont see how this will solve the problem at all it will just basically kill the streaming of 1,2k games at all.
2-5 minutes delay wont do anything. It will just make the stream experience alot worse while making cheating only slightly more effective.

Issue is difficult however since it is kind of hard to proof that someone cheated unless they are obvious about it. And I dont know hard it is to get rid of those few big assholes who cheat constantly. Some even go as far that they whisper the opponents when they are not even playing themselfs. This happened yesteday evening on pyro stream, didn't affect the end result but easily could've. If the community wants to support the streamers, then maybe these sad individuals like softbiscuit could just be gotten rid off?

[MarshMallows]

I was against streaming at first, But I went on Pyros and Brouders and it was a very positive place for beginners to learn legion. I think the delay in effect is enough to stop people having a huge edge. I think banning people who snipe streaming is a better option as the stream is a good thing for the legion community imo.

[Stealer]

Announcing that you're streaming seems pretty dumb. "Hey everybody if you wanna see team1's buildings go to twitch.tv/team1"!!!


As far as public games, take a chill pill. Somebody always seem to send the right thing? Make a case for mh. As far as my experience goes, luck helps a lot more than anything else.

Inhouse? Maybe think harder about who you vouch.


---
The mandatory 30s or w/e twitch has now is noticibly worse than the ~0 they started with.
Dota & al get away with 5+ because the casters are also 5+ delayed. If people ask you about shit 20 mins ago you're going to have no clue.

[Sylphrena]

Stream with delay or be at risk of giving an unfair advantage to your opposition team. Whether someone takes stream info and whether it will be banned as an unfair advantage will depend whether the OP of the brq can prove he/she took advantage of your streaming (general rule).

Putting delay is for the best of everyone. ENT encourages streaming, but seeing that you are using 3rd party programs that are outside our control, you are responsible for the information you leak. If someone reports you for your stream and a game they lost due to it, we will warn you/advice to delay. Although we have no rules or considered making a rule concerning streaming, I do think you are responsible of your activities when it negatively affects others.

So far, the only conclusions that have been made are:

1. Stream sniping is a ban-able offense.
2. Team-mates can report the streamer for ghosting. (General rules #5 "Do not ghost by leaking information to your enemies/opponents.") And hence,
3. Streamers are at fault for leaking information.

If ENT truly encourages streaming, why does your decisions seem to the contrary? If ENT, as you say, encourages streaming, shouldn't both ENT and streamers work together to solve the issue, instead of letting streamers shoulder the entire burden alone?
Since stream sniping is already a ban-able offense, why would you punish the streamer for it?
If someone breaks the rule and snipes the streamer, the fault shouldn’t lie with the streamer but with the stream sniper.

"Although we have no rules or considered making a rule concerning streaming, I do think you are responsible of your activities when it negatively affects others."
Why are there no rules concerning streaming? If, as you have stated, stream sniping is now a ban-able offense, the rule needs to be announced and made obvious. Recently, ENT has included a new rule in the LTD 1200+ bot which states:

"Do not intentionally split to stall time, except to send double-demon. "

Who out of all the LTD 1200+ players know of this rule? There has been no announcement on the website or in game. How could you expect anybody to follow a rule if they've never even heard of it?

Announce the new rules on the website, in game lobby and in game to ensure that everybody knows of these new rules to truly support and encourage streamers.
Staff at ENT, this issue warrants more of your attention and consideration.

[nabo.]

@Sylphrena

Sorry, but you are the ignorant one.

It is not my fault that you did not participate or checked the suggestion ltd topic while it was active.
There have been ingame announcements regarding rule updates on ent 18 and 31 and on wiki's main front news page.
Also, the split rule is only a rephrase or modification of its previous rule which was added in the past along with delay conditions. The main reason it got changed was due to confusion with the wording and to prevent delaying during any other lvl except before sending to dd.

As for streaming, we encourage streaming by listing streamers on our wiki info page. We do already have general rule for ghosting. However, as i mentioned, we do not yet have any specific rule(s) regarding streaming. Why? Because there was no need for one.

We have yet to ban a streamer yet afaik, however, if they do not delay their games which lead to negative effects, the fault may lie on them. Other staff and I included have mentioned on several topics to delay stream, so I do not think this advice is new. Skimming through, I think akitos mentioned that how we could compare an intentional ghoster compared to streamers leaking info. If I was a streamer and I know that someone on the opposite team is watching my stream, but have no way to prove it, is this not another form of letting go information on purpose? Someone mentioned that stream games should be announced, however, I think this will only worse the chances of ghosting.

I understand that going "live" and having question-and-answer-interactive-chatting while playing is great. Thus, why this suggestion has not been denied to see if we can find any solution to the current problem.

Instead of questioning the obvious, a solution would be great.