Dota v6.83 beta by IceFrog

[Hatedmaru]

Well @nabo. , we have several -em bots (dota apem us/ca , dota apem euro, dota arem,etc); My idea/suggestion would be to change for example apem us/ca first, see community reaction (like 1-2-3 (max) weeks and see if games hosted decrease, etc) and continue this idea if all is fine - My instincts somehow tell me that a full change at once might not be the best idea, but thats my opinion so far.

[nabo.]

Well @nabo. , we have several -em bots (dota apem us/ca , dota apem euro, dota arem,etc); My idea/suggestion would be to change for example apem us/ca first, see community reaction (like 1-2-3 (max) weeks and see if games hosted decrease, etc) and continue this idea if all is fine - My instincts somehow tell me that a full change at once might not be the best idea, but thats my opinion so far.

We could host the 6.83c version on -em, but that is not "gradually" changing from em to non-em though.

Its either we do it or not.

[ILLIONAIRE]

I really think combining AP EURO + US will make the ap games run faster because often times i see people in dota ap game and some people in Europe and it takes much longer to fill. Im supporter of removing em mode.. as nabo said but first of all atleast combining or removing ap us would help much better to get the ap games running for those player who are interested in more of skill based dota

[Frank]

6.83c is still buggy as shit. I played quite a few Dota void games where they host 6.83 and found out alot of game breaking bugs. For example when lycan ult runs out he cant move for the rest of the game sometimes. Butterfly new flutter effect once activated you lose the evasion part permanently and many many more. Wait for a more stable version imo.

[uakf.b]

@nabo. have you discussed with other ppl?

[nabo.]

@uakf.b

Most of the people who want non-em games are my clanmates, other dota clan people, and those who I meet on ap euro games (higher skilled-wise on average).

Dota v6.83c map itself is playable, with updates and without major game-breaking bugs (few minor bugs as frank mentioned due to portable/mechanic difference between dota1 and dota2 engine).

It is not a good map for -em since its based on dota2 gameplay. I have gotten few PMs and pubs ingame asking me why we dont host 6.83c on -em.

I have talked to an admin from dota void and he told me that they decided that they will stay with -em since they voted so despite 6.83c being an unbalanced version on -em.

We can either:
1) stay -em with 6.81d and non-em 6.83c (as it is now).
2) Host all non-em 6.83c.
3) Host both -em and non-em 6.83c.

My first choice would be 2) since I want the overall community to get to play better dota and we stay up to date to dota2 (the only risk I am afraid is that we'd lose some of our playerbase).

[NumberOneStunna]

Non-EM all the way, great in theory, but the only people weighing in on this issue are those at the top end of the skill pool. Weaker players (most players) will prefer -EM for obvious reasons, but they won't take the time to log on to the forum and share their views. The only way it will show is slowly decreasing player base over time--probably not a sudden change.

We've been on 6.83c for non-EM for a while now, and we're still not seeing players flock to those bots in dramatically greater numbers. In other words, the masses may want an updated map, but they want it less than they want -EM. There's no way I would completely get rid of -EM. Removing the most popular version of the game simply because a minority of players want more frequent non-EM games could potentially kill the league once and for all. Poor players aren't simply going to adjust to the higher level of skill required to compete in non-EM pub games. The league has virtually NO new players. It's a 10 year old game. Each player's skill level is, for the most part, where it's always going to be. If these players are forced to play non-EM, they're just going to get crushed twice as hard (or harder), get frustrated after a while, and quit.

And this "balance" argument is entirely unpersuasive. Balance has always been based on non-EM, and of course, as a result, some heroes have always been dramatically OP with the farm boost from -EM. It's not surprising that that theme will continue. There will be imbalanced heroes and combos, as there always have been, and there will continue to be counters, as there always have been. On that same point, great combos like Meepo + Sven (Aghanim) are going to crush hard in EM. You know where they'll crush harder? In non-EM against players who completely suck at non-EM and can't adjust.

[nabo.]

Your examples are bad counters in that you are referring to "adjusting" players and one of my argument was "to improve overall quality level of players". So, I am referring to the latter result, not the transition. You only envision immediate effects, not the latter.

You speak as if meepo + sven will be stronger on non-em than on em. You serious? Reality check: it takes a lot longer for meepo and sven to get stronger on non-em through item or hero kill farm and experience gain per time + there are a lot of more potential for meepo and sven to get raped through ganks. Early-mid-late game phase gap in -em is very short in that there are free loads of income gold, so your skill is compromised with stats items. But, in non-em the gap between these phases are longer. Meaning, that there is more balance for heroes to show their potential advantage within each time phase. The overall reason I am suggesting non-em is not because of particular heroes who are considered "op" on -em or because some heroes are more likable or stronger, but because there is an overall more balanced opportunity for ALL heroes.

Some heroes like LC who are considered "op" in em have gotten a nerf on 6.83c. + as you all know any semi, hard carry on non-em will need farm to own. Although full changelog for dota1 is not available, dota2 changelogs show a good overview. New scepters are cool and gay, but acceptable in non-em.

None can argue to me that through non-em games, players will play better in the mid-long run whether this is in a month or two or three or half a year. One of my primary goals for ENT since I applied on staff was to preserve and sustain the community. Instead of degrading our community with shitty players and ever lowering skill average creating a situation where long time passionate dota understanding lovers quit, Id rather create a scenario where these old timers stay because they see the dota passion within the pubs and an appropriate level of game quality existing and where newbs and noobs learn to play dota better through proper mechanics learning how to farm for themselves. I suggest all non-em for dota not only for the good decent players who are still within the community, but also for the noobs and newbies. Skill gap between different players will always exists just like there will always be rich and poors, but it is possible to increase the avg level of players to produce a better gaming experience to all overall.

You say there are no new players. You are very wrong. I see new players often. From garena, from eurbattle, and through friend recommendations of the game. I see many " I played this game 3-5 years ago, I wanna get back into it" while I am active on forum. Your type of mindset is same as those who think "wc3 is dead". But truth is, our bots are filling up as usual and "still alive".

Balance had been based on dota1 and its engines not solely on non-em, but now balance is based on dota2.

If some of the active forum users + uak do not want to risk losing our playerbase through my suggestion, that is a fine argument: we can stay how we are now. Valid point of view.

We have previously and have stayed with "older" versions of a map due to better stability and balance, however with dota currently, there are possible new updates with new features and metas/concepts + which are based on irl pro league + it is not a beta version...moving forward and with the flow isnt always the best choice, but could be.

This is about being able to accept changes which are based on good intentions. If you are not ready to realize and understand the goods and bads from these changes, you should perhaps rethink again.

[jfaller1]

@numberonestunna get good at dota then we can remove em, doto is an easy game

[NumberOneStunna]

@nabo.

Yea, some of that makes sense. Fuck it. Let's just change it and see what happens. If enough people stick around to have full lobbies, great.

[nabo.]

@agreements

6.83c for both you mean? Or stay as how it is (6.83c for non-em 6.81d for -em)

[aRt)Y]

The reason of doing this is to reduce the amount of bots and standarize the map and modes accross ENT. Adding more bots and more modes will probably have a more negative effect than doing what is suggested.

We should, however, and I agree here with hyro, go one by one.

Discussion moved to the other thread.