[DOTA] Allowable and Unallowable Dota Strategies

[nitromon]

I recently found out that the Syllabear "Bear Only" strategy is not allowed on Ent. It was not covered in the Ent Wiki Rules page and I'm wondering what other strategies are also not allowed. But more so after a discussion with one of the moderators on the reason behind why "Bear Only" strategy was not allowed, I think it would be great to have a topic discussion on why certain strategies are allowed or not.

I'll start by discussing a few I know of that are .... "controversial." Feel absolutely free to give your point of view and also add more strategies you are aware of that should or shouldn't be allowed.

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Syllabear "Bear Only" Strategy:
So I was informed that this strategy is not allowed because some claim that pro players can easily counter the bear and in lategame it becomes ineffective. So this is considered game ruining b/c your hero is actually low leveled. However, I strongly disagree with this "being the reason." Don't misunderstand me. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing whether this strategy should be banned, I was just surprised this was the reason. I tend to think the reason this is banned is because people don't like playing "against" this strategy since it is nontraditional and can be frustrating. However, I have never really had any issue with this strategy being "obsolete" in lategame. I think it really is depending on the person playing the bear.

First of all, any hero can be countered if you know how. So saying that this bear strategy can be countered itself is not a strong argument. Secondly, any hero can become obsolete lategame if you do not build him with the right items. So if the bear becomes ineffective lategame at 40 mins, that is not really a good reason. I've mentioned in a discussion that most "Axe" heroes become obsolete in 30 mins b/c of the common build. In fact, most Int support heroes become obsolete mid to lategame, leaving the "carries" to do their job... which is carrying. Bear Only strategy is not a "carry" strategy, it is a support / pusher strategy, not that different than furion or broodmother. It will run out of steam lategame, but item knowledge makes up for it, just like any other support hero.

You have 6 slots and the most obvious is BoT, radiance, and dagon for the kill. The other 3 slots are up for grabs depending on the game. If there are invisibles or AOE heroes, then the Book of Necro is the best 4th item. If the bear is facing harassment, blademail is a good 4th item. But finally the last item... you can go guinsoo or shiva, both are support items that can benefit the bear greatly and help support in combat. So put that in perspective with other Int support heroes at 40 mins, this bear is still a semi tank, a pusher, and a full support. He is definitely not obsolete.

However, I am not disagreeing this build shouldn't be banned. I can understand he can be frustrating for the "opposing" team and people are not really use to dealing with him. However at the same time, thinking outside the box is how we evolve the game. Dealing with frustrating tactics forces us to adapt and come up with new strategies. For any annoying strategy in this game, there is always a counter.

What about other annoying nontraditional strategies? And where do we draw the line?

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Arc Warden
I've seen it a couple of times, where Arc Warden gets 2-3 rapiers and then sits at fountain and using his clone to push and kill. This is really annoying. What do you think?

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Geomancer
I love watching a pro Geo dominate and win, but I hate the ones that get BoT and they just spam push the lanes and never engage. If you end up on the opposing team without a real good counter, you're just chasing ghosts. Even if you have SB and/or Spectre, it is hard to keep up with him. Finally when you do kill him, he's so loaded with money he can just buy back. Should this strategy be banned?

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Tinker / Furion
Tinker and Furion also uses the TP lane push strategies. Furion not so much lategame, but he can tp in and get lots of trees + Book of Necro, push and tp way. The real frustrating one is actually Tinker. A pro Tinker with linken sphere, guinsoo, BoT... and blink or forcestaff... he can own all the lanes and evade the enemy with ease. It is very frustrating to play against.

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Invoker
I've only seen this strategy once by a pro Invoker. We've seen Invokers get radiance and then becomes invisible all game, but this guy got the strategy down. With Linkens, Euls, radiance alone... he was staying invisible all game, lowering enemies down and them destroy them with his spells. Our stunners can't do anything b/c of his linkens and euls, he just harass and escapes until we're weak and then take us out. It is a brilliant strategy, but should it be banned?

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But of course if we are going to ban one unconventional strategy b/c it annoys us.... then where is the line drawn? What are allowed and what shouldn't? It becomes a slippery slope. Axe and LC cutting lanes? One of the most common annoying strategies.... Should we allow it?

What do you think?

[EdgeOfChaos]

This sarcasm is so heavy some might think it's serious.

And yes I do agree, banning bear-only in all cases is silly. Most people have never played vs this strategy, but it sucks like crazy to play against. The bear is virtually unkillable until 20-30 minutes, meanwhile you can rampage with your Radiance and basically force any hero to tele or die when bear comes in. Oh well though, it's done, what can you do.

[nitromon]

This sarcasm is so heavy some might think it's serious.

And yes I do agree, banning bear-only in all cases is silly. Most people have never played vs this strategy, but it sucks like crazy to play against. The bear is virtually unkillable until 20-30 minutes, meanwhile you can rampage with your Radiance and basically force any hero to tele or die when bear comes in. Oh well though, it's done, what can you do.

No I'm not being sarcastic. I'm really interested to know. The mod suggested that I start a discussion debate on this topic and I agreed.

I lean more on your view as well, I think we shouldn't ban strategies at all. We should ban exploits of glitches etc... but not various playing styles, it becomes a slippery slope. If anything, I think we should ban the hero LC b/c it is so OP. But that would also be a slippery slope. But like any hero, LC is counterable. (Slark on the otherhand....)

[Dhamma]

I didn't know Syla bear only was bannable. Although it's one of the most easily countered one out of your examples, i've seen it work as well. Especially when used to farm up some good items for his hero without the risk of death, in which case the hero actually is being utilized later on.

So actually it could be argued that there really is no "bear only" strategy. Eventually one will run out of space on bear and will start buying items for hero. Easily arguable.

Voker radi is one of the dumbest builds on him, that can only work on noobs.

Arc rapier can be very op, hence rapier no longer works on his double in dota 2

The rest are utilizing a legitimate strategy called rat. While annoying, the idea behind what those heros are doing is as old as dota itself.

@edgeofchaos is bear really bannable? if so, where is the rule?

[nitromon]

I didn't know Syla bear only was bannable. Although it's one of the most easily countered one out of your examples, i've seen it work as well.

Yeah I didn't know either until today. It wasn't written in any of the rules page and also I didn't think strategies could be banned. I did a quick search in the ban forum and apparently people who complain about this strategy are ones who lost their games and are looking for blames. I'm sorry to say, the bears in those games were not very good and it must be frustrating for the teammates who feel they were down 1 guy b/c of it.

I don't think that fault lies in the bear itself, it lies in the bear players not understanding fundamentals. Perhaps there's a discussion forum somewhere that teaches new players the fundamentals of this game. In the ban request game I posted, many people don't seem to understand that bear doesn't necessarily need to confront the enemy. Like Furion, Tinker, and other TP push heroes... you push other lanes to force your opponent to stop their push and defend. This gives your teammates room to breathe and farm a bit to catch up so late game heroes can actually have a late game.

In that specific game, the opponent had a very well balanced team of BS, POTM, Dazzle, Warlock, and Dusa. They were trying to rax at 20 min mark, my team of hotheads picked Jug, Viper, Clock, Abba... they had no answer for the Sent lineup early game. I gave them exactly what they needed, breathing room and farm so they can level up. It is classic Dota 101.

Alternatively, had I gone Duo Bear mode, realistically what can I farm in 20 mins? Tread for the bear, boots for Sylla, poison orbs for both, vlad, ... and maybe... a hyperstone for the bear. That would make 0 impact on that Sentinel team. Warlock drops the infernals then use his slow with Dusa's ult and dazzle, potm healing and attacking... and BS silencing. Game check and mate in 20 mins, Sentinels win.

I think the Bear Only build is very powerful if done correctly. There are noobs out there that tried it and failed and their teammates complain so this strategy got banned. Well, likewise, a noob can pick any hero and fail but those heroes won't get banned. Just on top of my head... I've seen Antimages and PAs who went blink dagger, the player's response was, "So I can blink into battle and blink out." I've seen tinkers going refresher. I even saw techies going refresher.

If Bear Only build is going to be banned, it should be banned for being too OP and not because it is ineffective.

Arc rapier can be very op, hence rapier no longer works on his double in dota 2

That's an interesting point. Since it is fixed in Dota 2 but not in Dota 1, should this be banned? Or is it already banned? I actually haven't seen this that often to be honest, only a couple of times. But when I do see it, there is very little the opposing team can do.

[HazarDous]

But more so after a discussion with one of the moderators on the reason behind why "Bear Only" strategy was not allowed

Link to topic / discussion, thanks.

[Dhamma]

Yeah I didn't know either until today. It wasn't written in any of the rules page and also I didn't think strategies could be banned.

i can't find anything. TBH, i don't think that it is, i don't see anything in the suggestion forum with syla wording. It's the same as banning anyone who uses a build that doesn't work well.

By this reasoning Shoc should be banned every time he gets shadow amulet + lothars on bane, or blink on akasha, or his infamous 6 battle furies on ds. Except syla build actually can work if done right, there are bad players and there are good players, thats all that is to it.

As i see it, there are more reasons that it shouldn't be banned as there are that it should.

That's an interesting point. Since it is fixed in Dota 2 but not in Dota 1, should this be banned? Or is it already banned? I actually haven't seen this that often to be honest, only a couple of times. But when I do see it, there is very little the opposing team can do.

It's not banned and shouldn't be, this isn't dota 2. Dota 2 is way too different at his point, as wc3 dota is years behind on any number of nerfs/buffs.

[nitromon]

Link to topic / discussion, thanks.

It's in a private message. Let me quote it.

This rule is not covered on the wiki rules page. I think the discussion happened a year or two ago. As I recall, the issue was that the strategy did not work on good players, who by the time they reached 40 minutes of game time they were of sufficient strength and level to be not affected by the bear, and then the actual hero that had been camping at the fountain is level 12 or 14 and not useful late game. I may be over simplifying the argument but I believe that is how it went.

Clarification of this rule and possibly others on the wiki page would be a good topic to start on a suggestion thread. Sometimes admin has reasons they keep the stated rules more general with less specificity than we would sometimes like, but debate never hurts anyone.

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i can't find anything. TBH, i don't think that it is, i don't see anything in the suggestion forum with syla wording. It's the same as banning anyone who uses a build that doesn't work well.

By this reasoning Shoc should be banned every time he gets shadow amulet + lothars on bane, or blink on akasha, or his infamous 6 battle furies on ds. Except syla build actually can work if done right, there are bad players and there are good players, thats all that is to it.

As i see it, there are more reasons that it shouldn't be banned as there are that it should.

I fully agree with you, but I was told by a moderator directly that it is a "bannable" offense and also I searched the banned forum using "bear" as keyword and there were a couple of them in the past that were banned for using this build.

I'm not here to challenge the build per say. If the mods say no, then it is fine I won't play this build. However, I would really appreciate a more clear answer as to why this build is banned while others are not. Also perhaps a more comprehensive list of what is allowed and what is not so players do not accidentally violate any rules not listed on the wiki rule page.

[EdgeOfChaos]

Rapier arc isn't a bug, it's just changed later on in DotA 2 because it's super op. Still counter-able though.

Was ShoC banned for this? I'll just say he's well known to be able to technically stay within the rules while still throwing games. Anyone who's been with him while he built 6 Battle Fury on Akasha knows what I mean. It may be justified, depends what specifically he did that game.

[BiLyA]

Invoker
I've only seen this strategy once by a pro Invoker. We've seen Invokers get radiance and then becomes invisible all game, but this guy got the strategy down. With Linkens, Euls, radiance alone... he was staying invisible all game, lowering enemies down and them destroy them with his spells. Our stunners can't do anything b/c of his linkens and euls, he just harass and escapes until we're weak and then take us out. It is a brilliant strategy, but should it be banned?

This is one of my invoker builds lmao, but u need manta+ghost too. And it doesnt work only vs noobs, u just need good reflexes to tornado-coldsnap-icewall enemies with detection. Radiance with coldsnap doesnt even let u move lmao, the weakness is that few ppl can farm radiance fast enough to hurt enemies that cant afford mass dusts and sentries. Did i mention that u run with 522 blazeit on ghostwalk?

Now, about this bear startegy. I guess it falls under the rules about afking. What would u do if u had a silencer or zeus or a warlock that just stay in base and use only their ult when its not on cd? Or a clockwerk that just lvls up his rocket and stays in fountain using it lmao. Technically, hes helping his team with vision and some damage, like ur bear. The bears strongest skill is root and the extra siege damage, and since she cant attack without the hero near, both are wasted. If u want to play this strat, go do it on newer versions where with aghs, bear acts independently...

Was ShoC banned for this? I'll just say he's well known to be able to technically stay within the rules while still throwing games. Anyone who's been with him while he built 6 Battle Fury on Akasha knows what I mean.

thats his dark seer build lmao. His akasha has blink dagger, travels and 4 persev for max regen

[nitromon]

This is one of my invoker builds lmao, but u need manta+ghost too.

That was you? Well if it was, it was very impressive. I think it is also difficult b/c it requires quick responses, programming the spells, etc... difficult for people who can't multi-task, like me.

What would u do if u had a silencer or zeus or a warlock that just stay in base and use only their ult when its not on cd? Or a clockwerk that just lvls up his rocket and stays in fountain using it lmao. Technically, hes helping his team with vision and some damage, like ur bear. The bears strongest skill is root and the extra siege damage, and since she cant attack without the hero near, both are wasted. If u want to play this strat, go do it on newer versions where with aghs, bear acts independently...

Well there is a big difference. The bear is actually in the field and he has 6 slots for items which allows him multiple abilities such as dagon, Book of Necro, BM for tanking, and shiva/guinsoo. I've seen so many people complain that "you're using bear to ks," which I disagree. Any support hero can go dagon and any other hero can go radiance, but it wouldn't be considered ks if they got the kill.

I have seen a Zeus who stayed in fountain and uses bird couriers with dagons. He would use the bird dagons and his double ult to kill. The big problem with that was when his couriers got killed and lost all his items.

Anyways, what version are you talking about where bear can act independently with aghs? Is it in Dota 2 or the 6.85? I haven't played 6.85 yet. But I thought this is also noteworthy. Earlier incarnations of Sylla, the bear is tethered to him and automatically returns to the hero when he is out of range. This has been changed to the current version where the bear can roam the whole map, just can't attack when out of tether range. I tend to believe this was done to allow more flexibility with the bear as a strategy such as bear only build. Otherwise, what would be the point of allowing the bear to go outside of tethered range when he can't attack? That's my opinion though.

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Out of curiosity. Has anyone ever successfully tried the Spectre with 4 divine, 1 crit, and 1 refresher build? I saw someone did it in game, but it failed and we lost. However, in theory it should work but it didn't work in the AI map. In the AI, Spectre's ult doesn't seem to include the damage from the divine. I'm wondering if it is coded the same in the 6.83. I noticed several aspects of the AI map differs from the actual game map, such as Magnus' empower etc... In the AI, the empower only amplifies his base damage, not any additional weapons. I think in the real game it amplies all his damage including any weapons, at least it use to. I haven't played maggie in a long time.

[BiLyA]

From dota 6.85 and on you can get aghs on syllabear yea. Also, the bear cd has been reduced to 120 from 180. In dota 2 i have won countless games with aghs on sylla and lothars-desol-ac-mjollnir on bear for backdooring late game. With aghs, even if the hero dies, the bear remains alive and with desol she just rapes the buildings lol.

Spectre with these items doesnt rly work because her best skill on late game is her dispersion and the ability to just charge the enemy team head on with her teammates behind, force them to use everything on her in order to take her down and then insta buyback and use ulti to go in and destroy all enemies that have their skils on cd and lowlife because of the damage u reflected at them before u die. U cant rly win a game as spectre with divines, but u can try mass divines on medusa lollll, shes the best rapier user in the game.

Now about magnus, empower amplifies base damage, so u should buy items like heart and armlet that boost your strength if u wanna play him as dps, since the heroes main stat defines his base damage. Sven's ultimate works that way too.

[HazarDous]

It's in a private message. Let me quote it.

This rule is not covered on the wiki rules page. I think the discussion happened a year or two ago. As I recall, the issue was that the strategy did not work on good players, who by the time they reached 40 minutes of game time they were of sufficient strength and level to be not affected by the bear, and then the actual hero that had been camping at the fountain is level 12 or 14 and not useful late game. I may be over simplifying the argument but I believe that is how it went.

Clarification of this rule and possibly others on the wiki page would be a good topic to start on a suggestion thread. Sometimes admin has reasons they keep the stated rules more general with less specificity than we would sometimes like, but debate never hurts anyone.

.

Who is the moderator ...?

[nitromon]

Spectre with these items doesnt rly work because her best skill on late game is her dispersion and the ability to just charge the enemy team head on with her teammates behind

So good to hear someone else say that. I prefer the tank build myself.

Now about magnus, empower amplifies base damage, so u should buy items like heart and armlet that boost your strength if u wanna play him as dps, since the heroes main stat defines his base damage. Sven's ultimate works that way too.

Thanks for the update. Been playing mostly support for a very long while now, hasn't been keeping up with these changes. I suppose they are fair, to prevent them from being OP.

Who is the moderator ...?

Oh, it is Mr. Beerlord.

[Dhamma]

Considering none of the mods have said anything about bear only being banned or not, i doubt it is