Legion TD

[Keelay]

Recently some ban requests have come up over the use of Antistuck. I've seen it be completely useless or very very useful. For example, if a team sends warriors lvl 1, antistuck can be used on the creeps to cause stun to hit less often which is a VERY powerful bug to take advantage of at that lvl. Other times, it can be used to slow the creeps with a 1/2 or 1 second stun.

As of right now, AS is a grey area and I believe the rules should be updated where AS should only be used:

1) when a creep gets stuck for the purpose of the tool
2) when building in a cross (Mega) to catch leaks; merge build

Most recent instance of it being reported: viewtopic.php?f=8&p=447767#p447767

[KiwiLeKiller]

I totally agree that antistuck should not be allowed to freeze the creeps/summons, since it relieves from bug abuse. It is also very annoying to see people spamming it and take half of the screen with :

Spoiler!

<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.

[Hutzu]

For MEGA, I would allow AS on towers as often as wanted as long as it doesn't break any other rule (hiding units etc.). On creeps/sends I would allow it once per lane, with the exception that units are actually stuck. You shouldn't need more than one AS to rearrange some of the creeps/sends the way you want them to come at your towers. This should still give players a chance to use AS in a somewhat skillful way, but restrict he abuse of just spamming it to stun creeps/sends. Maybe restrict the AS on your own lane for that purpose of send/creep rearranging. If you need more than one AS, then you have to work on your skill.

[Keelay]

The problem @Hutzu is that AS has always been a grey area in what is abusive or what can be allowed. It'd be nice to have it mostly cut and dry.

[Hutzu]

The problem @Hutzu is that AS has always been a grey area in what is abusive or what can be allowed. It'd be nice to have it mostly cut and dry.

I know, that's why I was trying to find a way to please both sides. Afaik I tried to suggest or at least participated in a discussion among mods back then to have AS restricted as much as you want it. People were arguing that AS can be seen as an asset or form of skill to get creeps/sends walk in a specific pattern towards your towers that makes you hold better etc. I fully agree that just spamming AS to stun is utterly ridiculous and needs to be abolished. Let's say I wouldn't be upset if MEGA gets same rules as 1200 regarding AS, but I think that might not get the support it would need. That's why I wrote what I did in my previous post. It is abolishing the stun-spammers and still giving the players a chance to use AS in a somewhat skillful way.

[bezdak]

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=111887
Here's my personal view on the case. Almost 2 months ago I've been told it's getting fixed soon so I let it go, no change nor indication of it appeared since. Number of people spamming AS increasing, complaints against this behavior are still appearing. Not only is this an awful glitch abuse, it also incredibly spams all others' game and it's annoying as fuck. If anyone thinks this is completely fine, it's more than just sad.
Also the recent BRQ wasn't nearly the first one and most likely not the last either (I believe I've processed 3 or 4 already? and that's only me). It's also sad it had to be processed against a guy that wanted actually a fair game.
!support

[KiwiLeKiller]

I do not think we should allow a certain amount of antistuck per player/lane since it still relieves from a glitch abuse and it would be a lot more trouble for players in-game and for moderators. Anyway, there is no skill whatsoever required to cast one or more antistuck and freeze the creeps, it is just an abuse and I am quite surprised it is not already banned. The original purpose of antistuck was to unstuck creeps or fighters, it was not meant to change the pathing of creeps, nor to freeze them for a moment.

Let's take the example of the guardian unit. It glitches when it uses it's ability on a boss. It was not intended to act this way, people used it anyway. It is a glitch abuse and it is banned.

It should be the same for antistuck used on creeps.

I suggest to add the following rule for ENT18:

Code: Select all

Do not antistuck creeps, unless they are actually stucked.

[Vinktar]

I think it doesn't really make sense to ban this on ENT18. As I see it, ENT18 is an "anything goes" type of bot. If you're allowing cross, infinite delay, clog, suicide and build together after 10, etc. then you should also allow antistuck on creeps as the aforementioned examples give a far larger advantage than antistucking. There is already a 1200 bot with much stricter rules where people can play a "vanilla" version of the game.

Personally, I enjoy these little tricks that let you push the game to its limit. With antistucking the creeps end up doing a tiny bit less damage overall as a few of their attacks are cancelled. This lets you do fun things like hold lvl 1 with 2 meat wagons or easy hold 2 with 4 aquas. You can claim this is abuse and isn't how the game was intended to be played. But then again, do you really think the developer of the map intended for you to be able to stop building after 3, go 7/6, get 200 income arena then build with your teammate after 10 and let him go mid every level regardless of how much the enemy sends?

If this minor thing really bothers someone, they should just go play 1200+ or LIHL where antistuck, mid build, and all other broken mechanics aren't allowed. I'd assume that if anyone is experienced enough at the game to be aware of little nuances like antistuck making the creeps deal maybe 5% less damage in total, then they are good enough to have 1200 ELO and play on ENT.31. If not, they have bigger problems than people using antistuck on creeps and should focus on improving their own game so they can move up to 1200+ and maybe LIHL.

[Keelay]

My only issue with using Mega as a test subject, is any new player or someone who, like me, has been struggling to get to 1200+ because of such abuse/ruiners/new players, has to play with people who know how to abuse the tool. Then a new player might think other forms of abuse with AS is permissible and suddenly find themselves with a ban.

Personally, I don't think that small skill is worth having in the game. I agree that it fill the screen with the annoying "User used antistuck on creeps" and the fact that this is being brought up again by a completely new user/person shows that it's going to be a problem again if it's not dealt with now.

Let's say I wouldn't be upset if MEGA gets same rules as 1200 regarding AS.

I believe this is a great way to both prepare Mega players for the bigger realms, when/if they get there, and it will help keep things uniform for everyone. Currently AS is too much of a grey area and we keep getting ban requests in the forums for people abusing the tool.

Edit: There's also too much discrepancy on what "abuse" means. Many players think this is abuse and they warn others that they'll get reported for being abusive of the tool and then they get reported for lying about the rules.

[Vinktar]

You are of course entitled to your opinion. When I play Mega, I really want to push the game to its absolute limits. I find this more fun than the 1200+ playstyle, though I acknowledge 1200+ is more fair and competitive. Personally, I think all these little things add up and are worth having in the game. There is so little mechanical skill present in LTD anyway, having this as a way of putting your APM to use at least somewhat is pretty cool IMO.

Also, I don't think the rules being too complex is a good reason to make the rules uniform with LTD. If anyone can't understand the rules as they are currently they really aren't putting in much effort. To put it simply:

- Can't antistuck units attacking king.
- Can't antistuck sends in cross to go straight to king
- Can't antistuck to steal teammates gold without permission
- Can't antistuck to make a teammate not go mid on purpose
- Everything else is OK

[bezdak]

@Vinktar You're mixing apples with pears honestly.
Cross, clog, merge etc. is stuff that simply add more strategies into the game, which might be strong but still counterable. It wasn't supposed to be in the game, however it adds a variety for those who like this kind of stuff.

AS spamming on the other hand is a complete bug abusing, not another strategy but breaking a game mechanic. It is not counterable in any way at all and it spams all players during the whole game. This has no place in the game, since it's horribly annoying.

[Jabba41]

Ok first of all we wont implement 1200+ AS rules on the mega bot. This doesnt have to be further discussed here. Not happening.


The current rules already limit the usage of AS to a very good level. AS usage and other "tactics" in LTD were always balanced to a point that there arent very game breaking things or things that give a huge advantage. And i'd like to keep it this way when it comes to implement rules.

Vinktar is already pretty much nailing it. Mega isnt played like the game was intented to be.
You always have to see the impact of this "bug abuse/glitch abuse" in the whole context of the game and its mechanics/tactics.
Its a good way to try different builds with a little lower value or to just recover more easily, actually on many waves its pretty much useless and not even a big advantage.
We can all agree that merged builds and cross builds already have a very huge advantage over solos in most games, if the skill level is the same and no one gets outrolled the team with cross/merge build always wins.

Using AS on creeps makes it a littler easier for solos to keep up with that and its not even close to be OP or anything. I dont mind this for solos, but as we already started to limit the usage of AS on creeps in cross build this needs to be widen on merged builds + i suggest that AS on creeps in cross and merged builds should be forbitten in total. That would be a change that actually balances the game a little more instead of forbitting it at all.

By removing it completly we would just make the tactics that are already superior harder to counter or to keep up with.

Then a new player might think other forms of abuse with AS is permissible and suddenly find themselves with a ban.

-> The players are responsible to read rules when playing our games. When switching to 1200+ thhey should get confident with the rules, AS isnt the only difference, this argument is very weak.

Let's say I wouldn't be upset if MEGA gets same rules as 1200 regarding AS.

-> As i said in the beginning, this wont happen. A lot of players enjoy mega games, not everyone who reaches 1200+ elo goes and plays on this bot. Dont see mega as a "trial bot" that just prepares for 1200+.

I agree that it fill the screen with the annoying "User used antistuck on creeps" and the fact that this is being brought up again by a completely new user/person shows that it's going to be a problem again if it's not dealt with now.

-> I agree with the first part, the "spam" is annoying. @broud3r would it be possible to toggle it on and off in general if the player doesnt want to see it ? Via a button or a command, can be announced ingame then.
-> Now the second part: Only because people report things doesnt mean it will or has to get changed. We had reports (which got less during the last year) for lane stealing in DotA even more, or for not drawing. Some people will always disagree with the current rules and ofc some will report it. This will always be the case and isnt really a problem for us.

The only real problem that is caused by AS on creeps is the spammy screen, anything else is minor and when put into the whole mega-meta and gameplay nothing that needs to be removed.

[elokiller]

nice one jabba. <3

[Vinktar]

@Vinktar You're mixing apples with pears honestly.
Cross, clog, merge etc. is stuff that simply add more strategies into the game, which might be strong but still counterable. It wasn't supposed to be in the game, however it adds a variety for those who like this kind of stuff.

AS spamming on the other hand is a complete bug abusing, not another strategy but breaking a game mechanic. It is not counterable in any way at all and it spams all players during the whole game. This has no place in the game, since it's horribly annoying.

It really depends on what your definition of "abuse" is. It's also a bug that you are able to send demon kraken behe on 15, but that's become part of the game. The advantage AS gives is very minor compared to all other forms of abuse present in the game. The creep wave does slightly less damage and you can hold with a bit less value. That's all. In fact, as Jabba mentioned, all this really does it help solo lanes which are in dire need of help anyway due to their obvious disadvantage vs cross/merge. Personally, I don't even find the spam annoying, but maybe there should be some option to disable the messages or to -cls every few seconds.

IMO, things like merge aren't really counterable as you say. People just normal YOLO until level 5 or so then just feed the shit out of their lane partners. There's absolutely nothing you can do about this. Sure, you can send early like 5 or 7 since merge takes a bit more time to ramp up than cross, but you take at most 2 heals vs upped king and the games goes 10+ anyway. After 10 the merged lanes always clear at least one side and go mid, which makes killing them on any level pre-15 almost impossible. Even on 15+ they always clear two lanes of sends so it's ridiculously hard to actually get them to leak enough to king to kill them. The only real counter as I see it is to also yolo hard and go double suicide -> merge. But then the same logic can be applied to AS, with the counter being "well just use AS on creeps yourself to gain the same advantage".

Either way, I really like how chaotic Mega is right now and how you can push the game to its limits. I see no reason to change that just because a few people don't like the AS mechanic.

[retroward]

I
Personally, I enjoy these little tricks that let you push the game to its limit. With antistucking the creeps end up doing a tiny bit less damage overall as a few of their attacks are cancelled. This lets you do fun things like hold lvl 1 with 2 meat wagons or easy hold 2 with 4 aquas.

With same argumentation u can save game 2 secs before lvl 15 starts, cause it shows ``skill``. Antistuck is for antiSTUCK, nothing to do with building together etc.