ENT Gaming

Can someone change the wiki to add a description what FF abuse is. so everyone knows what it is and its a heavy ban 5 days!

becasue people dont really understand what FF abuse is?

ban request why we got ban for ff abuse: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=133595

request to unban: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=133599 (failed)
another try to get un banned: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=133632

i think @amnon should change the wiki because he is like the boss of FF abuse and knows the rule backwards when the wiki only said any form of FF abuse so there is not much information

thanks guys!

Rules are left vague/open on purpose so that moderators can use judgment in how and when they apply them. The issue isn't the bad rule, it's that the moderator used poor judgment, which is even worse.

Also note that the game ruiner who was completely ignored is still, as of now, playing LTD.

Seeing as it doesn't look like any other moderator is going to review this in Appeals, I would try this forum: viewforum.php?f=10 rather than suggestions.

@edgeofchaos i think you might be on to something hear if i am not unbanned after 4 more hours i might take your advice cheers

Please keep this suggestion on topic, off-topic posts will be deleted.

Edge has summed up this topic pretty well, so props to him for being a voice of reason here.

While I feel this particular rule should be left vague, intent behind things is important. You were bringing attention to someone who, in a "competitive" setting was purposefully losing games. It was clear that he had multiple accounts that had more than 30 losses, and as soon as he won a single game he stopped using that account. I have joined a few games, and been keeping track of "Charnel."

Let's look at this for a moment:

User prior to Amnon saying he would be keeping track of the user had a score of 0-33, something EXTREMELY difficult to pull off without intentions.

Case after Amnon says he would be keeping track: User is now 1-33, and warned by a moderator, here is the game in question.
https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=11259956

He proceeds to lose 4 more games in a row... but here's the interesting bit. Starting with this game, #56 - He begins playing better miraculously. Suddenly he's not losing every single game anymore. https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=11263418

Note the time he starts winning also lines up slightly with Amnon warning him? A bit strange. The only games he has lost since were when he was playing a 3v4, or was against a team that was relatively stacked in context. Also note Persephone (the account believed to be the same user) has not played a single game since getting his first win.

Back on topic: The issue here is not the rule being left vague. It's left vague as defining what "abuse" of the feature is can be difficult not only from a moderation perspective, but from an implementation perspective. ENT has no possible way of detecting how the game is going until it is over, and cannot track whether a team is actually winning or losing. Therefor; it is left to the moderator to review any case in which abuse of the feature comes up. I suggested a while back adding a similar feature to Island Defense but there isn't a way for the bot to recognize what player is on what team over there for !drawing. They actually need to go and design it to implement it. viewtopic.php?f=279&p=505831#p505831

So, the question remains. Is it considered abuse, when used in agreement with the entire team, to bring attention to a known game ruiner, who very clearly was doing it intentionally? Was Amnon right in his judgement? As per rules, he was. But given the whole context, probably not.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to bring those things forward as well as give a bit more insight into the rule and how it's handled.

The fact that an entire team agrees to violate a rule has no bearing whatsoever. We dont allow illegal votekicks just because the entire team voted...
Amnon was correct in his interpretation of this issue.
You can not violate any rule to bring attention to a rule breaker. Report them instead.
I would also not get too caught up in the ban length. This type of ban, like ones involving game glitches, are more for education than punishment. The 5 days ensures players will come to the forum do discuss this and learn why a particular issue is considered ban-worthy. When that has been accomplished, players are typically unbanned promptly and can resume playing.

Seeing as people dont know how to search for info anymore.
Here is a quote from Falenga: "using the !ff command prematurely is against ENT's rules, when the vote actually passes. To clarify, !ffing is considered an abuse when the forfeiting team still has a very good chance of winning, and/or the scores/stats are still balanced, and/or it's just too early in the game to give up. Feel free to report such incidents. Keep in mind there are always exceptions."

Sidenote:

Forfeit is to throw the game when you reached an unwinnable situation with your team. Any other form of use is abuse in my opinion. There might be more or less abusive occurances. I would consider it the least abusive if someone writes ff out of rage. Most abusive would be to use ff to collect losses with a premade team. Other stuff like refusal to play without hitting a deadend, ff spamm is somewhere in between. You see it is not a black and white thing and can also be treated according to the severity of the offense.

BeerLord wrote:The fact that an entire team agrees to violate a rule has no bearing whatsoever. We dont allow illegal votekicks just because the entire team voted...
Amnon was correct in his interpretation of this issue. Edgeofchaos was not.
You can not violate any rule to bring attention to a rule breaker. Report them instead.
I would also not get too caught up in the ban length. This type of ban, like ones involving game glitches, are more for education than punishment. The 5 days ensures players will come to the forum do discuss this and learn why a particular issue is considered ban-worthy. When that has been accomplished, players are typically unbanned promptly and can resume playing.

I never said they were in the right for forfeiting to troll the thrower. In fact, I agreed with Amnon. What I wanted to bring to attention was the context of the rule violation, and how the person who is a bigger issue is still continuing to play the game. (granted with less obvious intentions as pointed out now that he has a moderator or two watching.) Even with (two?) ban requests up on him.

Yarragon wrote:I never said they were in the right for forfeiting to troll the thrower. In fact, I agreed with Amnon. What I wanted to bring to attention was the context of the rule violation, and how the person who is a bigger issue is still continuing to play the game. (granted with less obvious intentions as pointed out now that he has a moderator or two watching.) Even with (two?) ban requests up on him.

Wrong - the said player is actually banned lols:

viewtopic.php?f=172&p=517520#p517520
viewtopic.php?f=172&t=133696

This is one of those rules that leaves room for interpretation (The rule violation itself is clear - either the forfeit is early or not - however ban application/duration needs to be judged on a case-by-case, taking in consideration multiple variables, such as intention,game result at the point of forfeit, main reason why it was used,who is the reporter - is it an ally or an enemy, among other things ), so my opinion here matches exactly Beerlord point of view - I posted this on the other topic currently at the general section, and that's how i view it:

[*]The rule violation is cut and clear imo - From a teamplayer's perspective, mb all !ff doens't seem wrong given the fact all 4 wanted to forfeit; From an enemy point's of view (charnel or not), there's a rule violation: You are wasting people's time by forfeiting for no reason (It is one thing to forfeit when game result is defined, and another to forfeit due to a missed warrior send, shit rolls, etc.), however most of the times they won't report cause the easy win + free elo compensates the wasted time (If i waited 30 mins or more in a lobby for a game to start, just to have a bunch of kids !ff right at start for no reason, you can be sure i'd report them - Mb it woulnd't end in a ban for them, but this is one of many examples where the enemy might not appreciate the !ff).

Now from a moderator's point of view (and given the fact we're both ex-moderators, you should be able to see it from their side as well, just like i did) - Whenever there's a rule violation, you follow procedures/guidelines: You play it till the end (or leave and be autobanned) - your choice after all - report them once game ends, and let the moderators handle it --> Never but never violate the rules yourself expecting leniency/acceptance due to having another player possibly violating the rules themselves: This should be clear for everyone (moderators and non moderators) - You don't get to break the rules yourself, just cause someone is currently doing the same, simple as that.

[*]Regarding the ban duration, !ff abuse usually goes from 1 to 5 days if i recall correctly (for first offenses), and it will depend on context/intention/game result at the point where game was forfeited: In this case, game wasn't lost or won for either side, and the intention was clear: They believed the other player was trolling/teamkilling/losing on purpose, so they forfeited to mess with him: if it looks funny? Sure it does, i'll give you that; However it is a deliberate/intentional rule violation, and so the 5 days were given to make them aware/serve as a lesson (that's my opinion on it & how i see it: The 5 days were given, to get their attention for 2 points - 1) !ff for no reason isn't acceptable, moreover if its for trolling and 2) Violating rules to counter another player violating rules is a nono (As nabo sensei always said "2 wrongs don't make 1 right")

BeerLord wrote:The fact that an entire team agrees to violate a rule has no bearing whatsoever. We dont allow illegal votekicks just because the entire team voted...

Votekicks have victims (they're those guys who keep posting ban requests about votekick abuse). Now, who exactly had to deal with the negative repercussions of that forfeiture? Oh right, the thrower who seeks to screw over every team he's in and lose every game he plays. It takes a thrower for that "offense" to be reported and for the rule about it to be enforced.

The rule you mods officially enforce is basically "you can't forfeit a winning game and give the other team the win", except it implicitly becomes "you can forfeit a winning game, but only if the opposite team doesn't contain a thrower that will be upset about it and post a ban request". No matter how you look at it and feel about it, this is seriously messed up.

What EoC said. The rule is left up to interpretation for a reason. With regards to the case that triggered this suggestion, it was a clear abuse of the !ff feature, so it doesn't justify a clarification of the rule.

Suggestion denied.