Saving + ELO has ruined this game

[angry_chair]

As a casual Legion player since 1.3 who is extremely frustratedwith the direction Legion has gone, I have been playing for nearly 8 years and earlier this week was the first time I'd ever heard of "ELO" when I joined the ENT 3.5 bot and some self-proclaimed "top 300 player in the world" (because he plays 1 specific bot that uses a ranking system he is a top player in the world... sure) berated me for how low my "ELO" was... again.. first time ever with this bot after 8 years of playing. (In short, he was Orc, over incomed, started leaking by level 4 and we eventually lost. But he is top in the world).

Legion TD has one major flaw since the implementation of x3 Mega; saving. In this game, as in every single other game since 3.41, West leaked from level 7 to 17, yet they still won because they sent 4 Demons and several Krakens and auras on 17. The only difference between 3.41 and 3.5 is that the whole time 57 units are flooding our King they're spamming us with "Thanks for the + ELO ", "1100+ ELO ", and "ELO!!!".

It was frustrating in 3.41 when only 1% of games made it past level 17. It was even more frustrating when a team of leakers would save as a last resort of winning. Now it's extremely frustrating when a team of leakers is actually incentivized with a higher "ELO" to leak all game and lame-win by saving.

So to me, as an outsider to this forum and casual Legion player, ELO, in this current version, makes it look like a bunch of baddies competing for a number so they can claim to be the "best in the world". There are no more skilled, competitive games, there haven't been for awhile, there is only saving and massing. Leaking, as the aforementioned "top 300 player in the world" put it, is OK, even necessary in some cases (What??????)

----
If you have been playing since Legion x1, you know what skilled games were; income races to run the board of top kills, income, and value at the end of the game, a game that lasted well into extra levels. Too bad those versions never fill. I was elated to hear 3.5 had implemented -ns mode. My dreams of playing a fun version of Legion again were immediately crushed when I was met with a slew of "-ns mode makes this game not fun". You can't send a demon on level 10 because it would be extremely OP and lame. But it's totally OK and not lame to send 1500 lumber you've saved up instead... 1500 lumber on a level intended for 200 lumber... (so IMO why not allow Demons to be sent by level 7? It would be the same exact thing). All because of that "ELO". You see it time and time again... leakers + feeders = winners because they're savers. Can't take a level. Can't income without messing up. But you win and your rating goes up. And that rating means you're good? Look at how you won.

Sorry I am rambling and repeating myself now. I am just frustrated and unable to "just go play something else" because this is the only version of legion that anyone ever plays.

[supersexyy]

If you don't know how to counter a save tactic then I don't think you're a skilled player.

Knowing when to send, what levels to overbuild, comparing king heals etc takes as much skill as following cookie cutter builds, holding levels and pushing income.

People often say bots would be better without ELO, but truth is that having a rating system does increase activity and provide more competitive games.

[angry_chair]

If you don't know how to counter a save tactic then I don't think you're a skilled player.

If you save.. then I don't think you are a skilled player. You aren't. Period. x1 bot has -ns default to prevent laming. Because that what it is, laming. If you have less value, less income, a leaker on your team and you save to win because another team is income racing, then the win is hollow and undeserved. But at least my ELO will go up, right? And high ELO means I'm good.

It's not that I don't know how to counter them, it's just that I refuse to stoop to the level of a saver, so I don't counter them. Cookie cutter builds are more fun than cookie cutter games... erm... I mean half games, because Legion isn't a game, it's a half game... save 3, send mass, save 7, send mass, save 10, send mass, save 14, send mass. Game end. High ELO. I'm sick. Join next, repeat. 9 times out of 10 the team that won had someone who over incomed, failed, but stayed to feed his team and help save for 14. So over incoming leaker + fed team able to over income. That's what I call skill...

In the game I mentioned above I even stopped incoming to catch my teams leaks and over build, but again, how do you counter 2 Demons + a kraken and auras on level 17... even when you're over built by 1500... YOU CAN'T. That's my point. So it just becomes 2 teams of 8 people who can't take level 17 racing to see whose King dies first, and the winning team gets higher ELO.

What happened to the last 16 levels? It's not the ELO system I hate. It's the saving. And now ELO just gives you an incentive to save.

[supersexyy]

Typical player who has little experience in saving. There are many counters and different ways to play legion td.

I see you're playing public games which is a good way to learn the basics of legion td and get a basic grasp of legion td strategy. It is a good start but will only get you so far. If you really want to improve then I suggest you observe some LIHL replays.

FYI Saving 14 is most often a weak tactic.

[angry_chair]

Typical player who has little experience in saving.

Buddy, -no save mode in x1 was 100% implemented because of me and my friends saving 20-29 to see how many ghouls, militia and archers we could send. Trying to break records of sending over 600 little units. The next version that came out had -ns, because of us. I'm no stranger to laming either. ToK aoe aura was reduced because of our 2 laning "Jihad" tree strategy.

I've been around. I'm no stranger to laming and saving. Yes, I have very little experience in saving in x3 mega. Because I don't. Because I'm still holding on to the hope that one day Legion will go back to how it was in x1 (with -ns). Play ENT bot, I defy you to go past 14. The whole goal of the game is to get people to leave.

If I have to be a saver to be good at Mega, and if I have to counter savers to be good at Mega. Then I don't think I want to be good at mega. I guess I'll just sit in x1 lobby for an hour until it fills to play against people who are actually good at legion :/. You've obviously never played x1, so you wouldn't understand. I guess I have to accept that Legion is dead :/ It's been a fun decade.

Just as a test... to see if you are right, why not allow Demon to be sent whenever. Counter strategy for it. Because I fail to see the difference between sending a Demon and sending a Demon's worth of lumber on a level where Demon is locked. But I mean.. you should still be able to counter it, right? It wouldn't be OP. Instead of saving 1500 lumber for level 10 to send 7 furbs, just send a Demon. Should be counterable.

[Hutzu]

@angry_chair You cannot say that today's games aren't skilled. The required skill has changed, because of x3 and no -ns. Of course you will lose each game, if you try to play with the skill/strategy of 10 years ago. There are still games going past lvl 20, though the lvl 31+ games are nothing but luck. Which side gets the worse split and loses. You can have better value and income, but if your split is worse, you are screwed.

About demon every level, well a demon on 7 can obviously not be countered (the side with immolation wins at a race), despite the fact that saving up so much wood is close to impossible in prophet mode (with -ap and mercs it's no problem). The required value should somewhat decently hold sends as well.

ELO has nothing to do with the strategy-changes. Even without ELO, the primary point of the game is to win and not to see lvl 31+ or any other objective. There is a game Team 1 vs Team 2, then it is about winning. Period. If you want to try for other objectives as well, then you gotta find people who feel the same. I remember the days before prophet was implemented into the game and hybrid or ap were the modes with x1. That's how I learnt Legion TD. I think back then we also had peasants instead of wisps and no peasant-limit, though 22 or 23 peasants was maximum (otherwise they blocked themselves while harvesting and running back to town hall).
Yes, the strategies were different, but even then we saved for certain levels. At least my friends and I. Wasn't that active to see other strategies, but we mostly won with ours.

Countering demons and krakens on 17 isn't that difficult (trust me, we have done this several times over and over again). When the other team sends double-demon and kraken, then it's close to gg. Good teamplay is needed for that. The 3 most dangerous levels between 10 to 20 are 15, 17 and 20. 15 only if you got 1-2 heals left though, which can happen in games where you push income very hard in the beginning.
Then you pretty much split your team into anti 17 and anti 20 builders. 2 players spam siege, 2 players spam magic towers. Of course it is pointless trying to hold all levels for yourself with this kinda saving strategy. Your mix cannot be as good as holding all levels equally good. You need to specialize. After 20, you can add some mix into it.

[Diablo_]

Games obviously evolve. You can't expect a game to be played the same way over 8 years. Besides, saving is boring. I don't want to waste one and a half hour playing vs totally easy waves with zero challenge what so ever just to see the game being decided by the heavily luck based level 31.
And it's easy. No save is really really easy and boring. That's why 95% of the no save players have already switched to ENT. Many of them first complained that no save is stupid and requires no skill, but once they got used to it, realized the hundreds of possible strategies and found totally new areas of skill and way more action, they started to love it. Hence they stayed here and didn't go back to the no save bots (there still are some you can join, like UC). If you (and your team) play properly, you can usually easily survive save sends on 17 etc. You just need to see it coming and build for it. Obviously you can't build level for level, you need to see the big picture and prepare for the dangerous levels instead of optimising your build for every next wave.
Fact is, save games have a much bigger variety in playstyles and is much more action packed. That's why most players like it more.

But as I said you can join other bots where people still play no save games, but don't be surprised to see 95% complete noobs there, as almost no good player will freely play such boring games. I do respect no save games, they are fun once in a month or so but having to play them non-stop would make me quit wc3.

[eldryan]

ns is just overincome mode. really easy. you don't have to build with skill to hold, and 3 players can comfortably overincome with no repurcussion. leaking will be used heavily in ns.

furthermore, sending demons lvl 7 wouldn't be an issue vs many of the current builds. with avg king you might waste 4 healsif no immo....

ps. almost no games at high lvl end lvl 14.

[Akitos]

Sorry but all i read was: "Mimimimimi, i loose games because i hold on to a meta that was replaced decades ago because it is both ineffective and boring as hell."

[godlik3]

Lol
I don't have words to say how much I am laughtin of this guy hahah
Go watch some replays of the real good players and stop playing noob version 3.5
And yes! The best players r playing on this bot... But the real good players r playing on lihl.. Some times they play pubs but not all have 2k elo!

[angry_chair]

I guess I just cant get through to people who think playing half a game all the time is fun.

The best players r playing on this bot...

Please. Just because you have a rating system for your bot? "I'm top 300 player in the world ... it's ok, even necessary to leak" said in same breath by a guy who picks Orc, starts leaking on level 3, and keeps upgrading lumber. But it's ok, because he told me he's doing the same strategy that the top player in the world uses.

Just because the real way of playing is "meta... 10 years old" doesn't mean this version is better. This game has devolved.

Of course it is pointless trying to hold all levels for yourself with this kinda saving strategy.

So we're clear, being good at this game, to you guys, means you have to leak...Do I need to say anymore? This basically sums up what Legion has become.

[Hutzu]

Of course it is pointless trying to hold all levels for yourself with this kinda saving strategy.

So we're clear, being good at this game, to you guys, means you have to leak...Do I need to say anymore? This basically sums up what Legion has become.

Being good in this game means to win, right? If partially leaking is necessary for that, then it gets done.
It might differ from what you consider the point of the game, but these are the simple basics.

Look at job-market for example. Do you have specialized people working or all-rounders who are less good than someone in their specialized field?
Of course you have specialized people, who do the same job day in and day out. There is no rotating etc. (like today I work at the counter dealing with people and tomorrow I do secretary stuff and the day after I mob the floor and clean) at jobs (some exceptions may exist though).
Specializing and dividing the overall tasks has proven to be overall better in any field you could think of.
Same here. Why try to hold all levels vs sends (after lvl 10 we don't really leak that much, my prior statement of leaking and specializing was for holding vs sends, not the wave itself), if you can specialize and cover each other's back? The only times we leak on purpose after lvl 10 is, when we want to send a double demon. For example, opponents send on lvl 14 and fail (we hold easily). Then one of us doesn't build and leaks 16 on purpose, so we can send double demon on 17. That is strategically correct. May be against your ethics, but that's your problem.

The point of each game is to win and not to hold every level. If you think differently, then you gotta look for people who think the same, because that's exotic. And the best way to win has been proven to be exactly how we play.

[godlik3]

its not because we have a rating syste....its because uakfb supersexyy igght and i dont know who more had the great idea do create a league of ltd called lihl where the best players r playing....u just play pubs with ppl that cross merc double build etc....u have been playing 10 years as u r saying and u still have no idea how to play that game as i see....

i have several replays with me or other ppl holding triple demon kraken warlock on 17....
so if u cant hold even 1 demon 1 - 3 krakens and auras on 17 u r really bad
i can show u i holding 17 my lane and 30 units mid with 0 siege towers or phantoms....
only magic and pierce units....i think u just upset cuz u dont know how to build and what to build to hold hard waves...
even ur team mate that say he is 300 top on word doesnt know how to do it...and wtf?300 best? lol not even close to be a good player!

[GoatsBeGone]

Let it go Let it go, you can't play without save anymore

[Akitos]

> laughing my ass off