Discussion about peoples behaviour

[RadiantCrystal]

sometimes you have to send EVERY round (even sending round 9 can be good : someone may hold but if you make 2/3 players leak, after they already leaked 7 and 8, not only will you "kill" them, but the "holder" won't get more than 20-30% gold).

This can be dud. They leak on 7, 8, 9 saving you mass wyverns and if you don;t have full heals with full shockwave king, then it is game for you. Please get more knowledge of the game before making an absolute state of "have to"s

[Kaouaille]

Sending every round doesnt mean you have to send all you have every round (if you face totally undervalued aquas, sending hermit may be enough to make them leak 9).
With enough upgrades it's pretty easy to hold 10, even if you have to use 2-3 heals. And I know people care a lot about their heals, but on lvl 11+, the line between leaking and dying is very thing, and having 1, 2, 3, 4 heals or none doesn't change so much. Sometimes your strategy is to hold and that's no shame : once you have a minimum lumber upgrades (that's often around 7-5), you can win even if your opponent has more than you.

But these are just words, and, of course, what matters is to prove that in game.

[Kaouaille]

Actually, I played one 1200+ game (and won it), but I was really pissed because people seem to know what they're doing but to me they just play by the book.

Are you seriously argueing about how people play on the 1,2k+ bot after playing ONE GAME? I don't even feel like responding to any of this, considering your opinion is based on ONE GAME... D:

It's mostly the chat I had with all 7 players that lead me to my conclusions.
I admit the sample is small, and I understand your criticism.

However, what do you consider wrong about what I said ? Actually, Ispamcolts just confirmed my idea when he said "This knowledge is taken for granted, and assumed of you when you play 1200+. When someone deviates, it annoys everyone because they immediately see the sub-optimality of the play".

All these bots are random-team bots, and I doubt anyone can really develop optimal strategies without having a very specific method of training and experimenting. It requires to know your team mate very well and to share all information and ideas with him.
I've experienced the huge difference between Random Team and Arranged Team games on war3, and to me it appears it's also the same on LTD.

But I'll conclude my answer the same way I did right before : this is just sweet talk and I guess I'll have to prove my point in game (just gotta find regular team mates though ).

[Akitos]

Well.. Most of the stuff you said about how the game should be played is exactly what people do on 1,2k+/lihl and i think you've missunderstood colts statement. What he was talking about were mostly the first 1-4 levels. With Aqua for example you always get 200 value level 1 and 3/0 (unless you fear warriors and your team is really really bad level 1, but that's rarely ever the case) and if someone deviates from that and goes for example 150 or 300 value, which is both insanely bad, you can expect people to be upset about that. It's simply assumed that players on 1,2k+ bot know how to play the most common towers in the first rounds, after that everything is situational and people have to adapt to the game; but the first levels are really always the same and there definitly is a perfect way to play them. Obviously there is some situational stuff involved there, for example if you get a level 2 send and ur team didn't even leak u can pretty much guarantee that you can undervalue level 3 hard and don't need to fear a send, but that's also stuff that is assumed people know. Mortars are a good example for this. You usualy start with 2 upped ones and 3 unupped ones and if you get a warrior send you stay like this for level 2. If someone however upgrades another one for level 2 even tho they sent 1 and there was not enough time to fear a resend he's considered bad and may be flamed for not using the feed he just got.

"With enough upgrades it's pretty easy to hold 10" You've never seen a massive 10 send then ^^
"and having 1, 2, 3, 4 heals or none doesn't change so much." It actually changes A LOT and the heal count is always considered when deciding when you're sending. Not sure where you've got your experience from, but as far as i'm aware of there is no quality games beside 1,2k+ & lihl so i can't really blame u for not knowing such things. Also i do not mean to be offensive here, you seem to be a decent player, but it's quite obvious you still have a lot to learn. Maybe you should consider playing some more games on 1,2k+ and possibly apply to lihl if you think you've got what it takes.

EDIT - "All these bots are random-team bots, and I doubt anyone can really develop optimal strategies without having a very specific method of training and experimenting. It requires to know your team mate very well and to share all information and ideas with him." Not sure what you wanna say with that. Most strategies were developed in lihl and have been brought to publics by lihl players playing there, and on the 1,2k+ bot in particular people usualy always watch others and help them out. Who've played some more games on 1,2k+ will probably know me and know the fact that i always share my knowledge, even if the others sometimes don't wanna hear it So yeah, not rly getting your point.

[RadiantCrystal]

I second Akitos, he summed it up pretty well including my point so yea, if you want to defend your statements or what not, try playing more 1200+ first ^.^

[ispamcolts]

Anyway, my opinion is : there is no such thing as a "one best way". (and I hate 1200+ because ppl seem to think there is)

Akitos has already explained how in certain segments of the game(usually the start), there is indeed a best way with some builds such as aqua and DE, and deviation(without very good justification) is plain wrong. This does not imply that you do the same thing for all levels, blind to new information(your opponent's send, extra time through a leak, a scout, a deficiency in your team's capabilities in holding a particular early level[e.g. 5]]), what it does mean is that the reaction to that new information will always be the same, if the player is playing optimally.

All these bots are random-team bots, and I doubt anyone can really develop optimal strategies without having a very specific method of training and experimenting. It requires to know your team mate very well and to share all information and ideas with him.

As a certain level of knowledge is assumed and expected of everyone, there is no need for complex co-ordination and knowing your team mate well early on, as everybody knows their team mates' general game plan from their roll. It is assumed your team mates will up king for 7 if you don't have immo or a hard holder. It is assumed a guy with yggs will hold 5 hard if there are 1-2 DEs on the team. These things are almost unspoken.
Regarding the experimenting, it has been done, through the hundreds of thousands of games that have been played, and from these experiments these "best practices"(optimal builds) have emerged.
The above is in specific reference to 1200+ - I can accept that the normal ent18 bot is very different, and the variance in your potential team mate's playing level is absolutely massive, to the point where you do need to spell things out("sell that cyborg, and just get 3 more aquas!")

And I know people care a lot about their heals, but on lvl 11+, the line between leaking and dying is very thing, and having 1, 2, 3, 4 heals or none doesn't change so much.

With the recent reduction in clogging, heal count is more important than ever. Along with whether or not your opponents have particularly level-strong builds(mutant, hydra, blaster), it is a principle determinant of a team's strategy 10+ and what level they decide to send on. With 4 heals and immo, you're very unlikely to have the other team send 14 against you, for example(though I have lost in this situation to a gargantuan 14k lumber send) Having a 2 heal advantage on a level both teams are sending and racing is a huge, and often deciding, factor. Again, this is in the context of 1200+, and its relevance to the bots you play on may be less.

But I'll conclude my answer the same way I did right before : this is just sweet talk and I guess I'll have to prove my point in game (just gotta find regular team mates though ).

Come play 1200+ regularly! The great thing about it is that you generally have decent team mates, with people who play poorly quickly either improving or leaving the player pool. You're much less likely to get a terrible player that will drag the team down to the point where you lose the game, as is the case on ent18, because after all like you've said it is a team game at its core.

[Inkocknito]

"What do you feel like legion has turned to be like over the years? Personally I think 1200+ is even worse. I don't play this not because I suck. I hate it just for the incredibly ignorant people that suck and tell you what to do nevertheless. Do you think there is need of a thread where you discuss about peoples behaviour?"

No offence man, but you probably do suck. If you are around flame a a lot, it is pretty much always cos you suck. I cannot confirm whether or not you suck, but I give you a 98% probability of suckage.

So.
If someone does a mistake you flame him?

And if you do mistakes yourself (e.g. in games after or before) it's ok. Right. Counter-Strike mentallity reached legion TD finally. Quite sad that even you like the flamekid state of mind because I remember you being one of the calm ones. Also maybe grow up and learn that if you want to be the best of all - there have to exist worse ones than you. I just hate real life losers who focus on an old game to be the best and if they lose its there team and they start flaming. If they win others are "lol noob EZ gg" and also you "carried" your team. Sorry but I can give you a 98% chance of being a massive loser irl.

tbh lately 1200+ was quite ok no one trolled, no one flamed, good games. It seems like there are just a few black sheep out there. An ignore list would do wonders... I made my personal "blacklist" now - maybe thats why things got way better. Just sucks if they are making a new account.

[Inkocknito]

Regulars on 1200+ have played a number of games in the many hundreds, if not thousands, usually. They have done every standard build dozens upon dozens of times. Through this huge volume of trialling(seeing what works and what doesn't), people have developed a great sense of heuristics(knowing what to do, when to do it), which has led to a huge convergence on how people play, especially in the early stages of the game.This knowledge is taken for granted, and assumed of you when you play 1200+. When someone deviates, it annoys everyone because they immediately see the sub-optimality of the play(e.g. "you could be 6/1 by now and only leak minimally, instead of being 4/0 and holding hard!"), unless it's an interesting idea of mixing units.
This occurs often when people cross into 1200+ from ent18 and get flamed into oblivion for building on the wrong wall, doing an oracle build, building shitty units, not pushing enough etc... People's first response sometimes is to just call them shit and tell them they're noobs, which doesn't help very much. Often though people do give tips and recommend the right path, and sometimes new players listen, but very often they don't because they assume it's very similar to ent18 and they already know their shit("Yeah man I know how to play!" *ups oceanus on 2*). It's a treat when a player says "guys I'm new please give advice here are my units", because you know they'll listen and work in a team.
The worst in my experience is when new players say stuff like "Dude just let me play...you play your game and I'll play mine...it's just a difference of opinion.....OMG you leaked 4-5 units on 6 what a noob....(while you're 7/3 and they're 5/1)", ignoring the objective correctness of their build/play. Or after offering them some advice, they just !ignore you.
So on the one hand, I think people need to be a little more considerate of new players to 1200+, but on the other one can definitely see why people sometimes avoid playing with them, as we've all had an experience where new players refuse to take advice, play poorly and cause you to lose the game. Overall 1200+ is pretty friendly, though you do get the odd bad egg.

Wow, something constructive. I know what you're trying to say and it's right for the most part. I see this "ignoring" stuff often, but like half of the times those people shut down to all kinds of hints because the people were like "LOL 5/1 in level 6 so bad you should be 6/1 fucking moron you held easily with just 5 units instead of 6 lolol".

- They have a permanent desire for revenge because their life sucks.

Yeah. Maybe because they're bronies. But well I am a helpful guy and try helping those people out but most of the time they are like "let me have my own hobbys lol you suck at LTD (which I dont even do really)"
A tiny bit of exaggeration in this, but maybe you get what I am trying to tell you.
OK, no more shittalking now, sorry.

Actually, I played one 1200+ game (and won it), but I was really pissed because people seem to know what they're doing but to me they just play by the book. The playstyle is way too standard and, to me, full of flaws.

That's what happens to me since I started this game. When I realize I know everything by heart and can't experience any knew thing I stop playing the game for months. I can't really understand how you can't get bored because there is nothing fun about following a list of things not doing anything else that differs from that strat. I gotta admit I also hate those noobs building frost dragon level 1 in the mid of the lane and stuff... But.. maybe get another hobby than being best at a game at which you have to be good at learning shit by heart.

[MarshMallows]

"What do you feel like legion has turned to be like over the years? Personally I think 1200+ is even worse. I don't play this not because I suck. I hate it just for the incredibly ignorant people that suck and tell you what to do nevertheless. Do you think there is need of a thread where you discuss about peoples behaviour?"

No offence man, but you probably do suck. If you are around flame a a lot, it is pretty much always cos you suck. I cannot confirm whether or not you suck, but I give you a 98% probability of suckage.

So.
If someone does a mistake you flame him?

And if you do mistakes yourself (e.g. in games after or before) it's ok. Right. Counter-Strike mentallity reached legion TD finally. Quite sad that even you like the flamekid state of mind because I remember you being one of the calm ones. Also maybe grow up and learn that if you want to be the best of all - there have to exist worse ones than you. I just hate real life losers who focus on an old game to be the best and if they lose its there team and they start flaming. If they win others are "lol noob EZ gg" and also you "carried" your team. Sorry but I can give you a 98% chance of being a massive loser irl.

tbh lately 1200+ was quite ok no one trolled, no one flamed, good games. It seems like there are just a few black sheep out there. An ignore list would do wonders... I made my personal "blacklist" now - maybe thats why things got way better. Just sucks if they are making a new account.

People who get flamed usually suck. If you try to help someone who is making an obvious error and they just ignore you, it is pretty annoying.

[Akitos]

- They have a permanent desire for revenge because their life sucks.

Yeah. Maybe because they're bronies. But well I am a helpful guy and try helping those people out but most of the time they are like "let me have my own hobbys lol you suck at LTD (which I dont even do really)"
A tiny bit of exaggeration in this, but maybe you get what I am trying to tell you.
OK, no more shittalking now, sorry.

What the actual fuck? I'm not sure if i should laugh or cry about how stupid this is Since when exactly are bronies a subject of this discussion and since when do the personal interests of someone in something have anything to do with how they act?

So.
If someone does a mistake you flame him?

And if you do mistakes yourself (e.g. in games after or before) it's ok. Right. Counter-Strike mentallity reached legion TD finally. Quite sad that even you like the flamekid state of mind because I remember you being one of the calm ones.

You're saying stuff like that and made a whole topic about "peoples bad behaviour" while you're clearly offensive towards a broad spectrum of people, including myself, just because of what they like? That's just sad really. You clearly shouldn't be the one pointing fingers about other peoples bad behaviour while acting like this. I didn't even do anything to you, yet you insult me based on what i like (which has absolutly NOTHING to do with this subject). Very mature son.

Actually, I played one 1200+ game (and won it), but I was really pissed because people seem to know what they're doing but to me they just play by the book. The playstyle is way too standard and, to me, full of flaws.

That's what happens to me since I started this game. When I realize I know everything by heart and can't experience any knew thing I stop playing the game for months. I can't really understand how you can't get bored because there is nothing fun about following a list of things not doing anything else that differs from that strat. I gotta admit I also hate those noobs building frost dragon level 1 in the mid of the lane and stuff... But.. maybe get another hobby than being best at a game at which you have to be good at learning shit by heart.

If you really believe you were ever at a point where you "knew everything by heart" then you clearly don't know too much about this game. I dare to say there is no player who knows everything. Not to mention that no good player will ever play like this: "...following a list of things not doing anything else that differs from that strat", "...being best at a game at which you have to be good at learning shit by heart.". There is no such thing as a fixed strategy, every game and every roll is unique. If you really believe that's how LTD is played by good players i'm afraid you've never seen a top tier LTD player. If you'll just do the same shit over and over again you will fail miserably, especially vs good players, because those are very likely to abuse your habits. Once you get readable you will lose. Even with common rolls such as archer my gameplay 1-10 looks different every single game based on whats happening. Being best at LTD requires the ability to analyze and adapt to the current situation, and not "learning shit by heart".

[nabo.]

We can talk nonestop about toxic people, but truth is there are a lot of variety of people. If you were ever in business where you had to interact with all sorts of people, you would understand. Knowing how to deal, coop, and interact with others w/e their variables are, depends on you.

LTD is like playing chess, for me anyway.

[Akitos]

LTD is like playing chess, for me anyway.

^

[MarshMallows]

The Nabster strikes again!

[Inkocknito]

- They have a permanent desire for revenge because their life sucks.

Yeah. Maybe because they're bronies. But well I am a helpful guy and try helping those people out but most of the time they are like "let me have my own hobbys lol you suck at LTD (which I dont even do really)"
A tiny bit of exaggeration in this, but maybe you get what I am trying to tell you.
OK, no more shittalking now, sorry.

What the actual fuck? I'm not sure if i should laugh or cry about how stupid this is Since when exactly are bronies a subject of this discussion and since when do the personal interests of someone in something have anything to do with how they act?

So.
If someone does a mistake you flame him?

And if you do mistakes yourself (e.g. in games after or before) it's ok. Right. Counter-Strike mentallity reached legion TD finally. Quite sad that even you like the flamekid state of mind because I remember you being one of the calm ones.

You're saying stuff like that and made a whole topic about "peoples bad behaviour" while you're clearly offensive towards a broad spectrum of people, including myself, just because of what they like? That's just sad really. You clearly shouldn't be the one pointing fingers about other peoples bad behaviour while acting like this. I didn't even do anything to you, yet you insult me based on what i like (which has absolutly NOTHING to do with this subject). Very mature son.

Actually, I played one 1200+ game (and won it), but I was really pissed because people seem to know what they're doing but to me they just play by the book. The playstyle is way too standard and, to me, full of flaws.

That's what happens to me since I started this game. When I realize I know everything by heart and can't experience any knew thing I stop playing the game for months. I can't really understand how you can't get bored because there is nothing fun about following a list of things not doing anything else that differs from that strat. I gotta admit I also hate those noobs building frost dragon level 1 in the mid of the lane and stuff... But.. maybe get another hobby than being best at a game at which you have to be good at learning shit by heart.

If you really believe you were ever at a point where you "knew everything by heart" then you clearly don't know too much about this game. I dare to say there is no player who knows everything. Not to mention that no good player will ever play like this: "...following a list of things not doing anything else that differs from that strat", "...being best at a game at which you have to be good at learning shit by heart.". There is no such thing as a fixed strategy, every game and every roll is unique. If you really believe that's how LTD is played by good players i'm afraid you've never seen a top tier LTD player. If you'll just do the same shit over and over again you will fail miserably, especially vs good players, because those are very likely to abuse your habits. Once you get readable you will lose. Even with common rolls such as archer my gameplay 1-10 looks different every single game based on whats happening. Being best at LTD requires the ability to analyze and adapt to the current situation, and not "learning shit by heart".

ok, you didn't get my point, np bro(ny :p)
But where the fucking hell did I insult you? Did I hit some weak point or something? Well then, I'd consider myself to be right in this thing then - though I am a bit sorry here if it did.
The whole shit should just be some provocative pointer to a discussion that goes way to far beyond this whole matter. In "short": I felt like some guys in this thread who might have a really strange priority in their life (LTD >> all; exaggerated ofc => methaphor blabla I feel dumb to explain all that all the time just so you wont get it all wrong again) trying to tell others how other guys living their lives on a wrong way. You can never tell if someone does. If you enjoy MLP. Do it. And if you enjoy LTD. Do it. If you feel like it's the only fucking thing in your life. Well - that can be a dangerous thing but if it works for you. Do it.
Just don't act like a huge joke by degrading all people who aren't as pro in LTD as you are. They might not be full-time LTDers.



And if YOU didn't do all of that I am sorry I picked your MLP-thingy as an example.

[Inkocknito]

And please learn that there might be things who get exaggerated in discussions to point out a thing.

If you really believe you were ever at a point where you "knew everything by heart" then you clearly don't know too much about this game. I dare to say there is no player who knows everything. Not to mention that no good player will ever play like this: "...following a list of things not doing anything else that differs from that strat", "...being best at a game at which you have to be good at learning shit by heart.". There is no such thing as a fixed strategy, every game and every roll is unique. If you really believe that's how LTD is played by good players i'm afraid you've never seen a top tier LTD player. If you'll just do the same shit over and over again you will fail miserably, especially vs good players, because those are very likely to abuse your habits. Once you get readable you will lose. Even with common rolls such as archer my gameplay 1-10 looks different every single game based on whats happening. Being best at LTD requires the ability to analyze and adapt to the current situation, and not "learning shit by heart".

I answer this whole stuff just by quoting one of your posts above, OK?

What he was talking about were mostly the first 1-4 levels. With Aqua for example you always get 200 value level 1 and 3/0 (unless you fear warriors and your team is really really bad level 1, but that's rarely ever the case) and if someone deviates from that and goes for example 150 or 300 value, which is both insanely bad, you can expect people to be upset about that. It's simply assumed that players on 1,2k+ bot know how to play the most common towers in the first rounds, after that everything is situational and people have to adapt to the game; but the first levels are really always the same and there definitly is a perfect way to play them. Obviously there is some situational stuff involved there, for example if you get a level 2 send and ur team didn't even leak u can pretty much guarantee that you can undervalue level 3 hard and don't need to fear a send, but that's also stuff that is assumed people know. Mortars are a good example for this. You usualy start with 2 upped ones and 3 unupped ones and if you get a warrior send you stay like this for level 2. If someone however upgrades another one for level 2 even tho they sent 1 and there was not enough time to fear a resend he's considered bad and may be flamed for not using the feed he just got.

Written-in-stone stuff also includes case-structures like "if send then ... else ..."