New Legion TD Mega Version (Beta 8)

[Saucer]

This is in reference to this thread (archived):
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=24591

Lol guys, could you please stop tossing this topic around? (deleting it from this forum section, then creating it again in suggestions forum, then archiving it so that I can't reply).

Anyways. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've been rather busy lately.

And there's a Beta 8 out now, by the way.
http://legiontd.in-goo.com/t451-legion- ... -35-beta-8



@iightfyre

Thank you very much for sharing your perspective on that. It's a pleasure to hear from people who are passionate about the map and can share their thoughts in a constructive manner.

I understand that these recent changes removed a certain interesting dynamic from the game - one that some of you have come to enjoy very much. Sorry about that!

For what it's worth, I can tell you that it was a concious decision on our part, but I won't go into details with that here.

As for 3.41, I don't have time for that right now, but I'd love to put together a quick fix if I could. I mean, the antistuck and small stuff, but not any balance changes or anything major, because I won't "fork" (begin new development based on) the 3.41 map.

I did support eGze's map with 2.7c (not 2.7b), making changes for years after the initial release of the map, so I can certainly appreciate the idea of supporting an old map version.

Anyways. I'll keep it in mind, and perhaps some day I'll put out a little 3.41 update.

Oh, and just to clarify:

- Lisk created the original Legion TD map and worked on it until version 1.50.
- HuanAK built his Mega map based on 1.50 and worked on it until 3.5 Beta 4.
- Kongk and Saucer are now picking up where HuanAK left, with Beta 5 and onwards.

We (Kongk and I) have also been working together with von Oberstain on some other Legion TD maps based on eGze's work, but that's another story.



@eldryan

The -db (dual builder) mode is indeed a lot of fun. Not sure if we'll be adding it to Mega, but thank you for the suggestion.

Mercenary and -li have been removed completely in the latest Beta 8.



@Diablo_

Exactly. You can play without -ns if you want. The only problem is the massing.

So if you can live without massing, then perhaps the new Beta would be a better map for you guys (considering the other improvements). But that's for you to decide.

[Diablo_]

First, thanks for working on the map, but after trying the map out I dislike many changes.

B5:
* Meat Wagon, War Maschine and Dwarven Engineer -- Made "splash" ability work on Air units too (area of effect slightly reduced though).
Makes Engineer totally overpowered, along with the nerfes on other towers Engineer is now by far the best starting/income tower, while also being very strong at later levels (Mutants). Either nerf them (60 or 70 upgrade gold) or disable the AoE on flying creeps again.

B6:
* Mudman Cooldown decreased to 1.1.
Also way too strong, one of the best DPS/Gold value, while also having a big HP pool. Should be 1.2 or 1.25.

* Stock Replenish delay decreased for Infernal and Demon.
Not sure how much it was reduced (got numbers for me?), but imo it was fine as it was. Being able to send 2 demons shouldn't be made easier.

* Maximum Stock reduced to 1 and Stock Replenish delay strongly increased for Milita, Bowman, Ghoul and Warrior after level 9. This will prevent people from massing.
You know ENT doesn't like this, but fine.

* Furbolg nerfed and lumber cost increased (priority slightly increased as well).
This makes sending on level 2 pretty useless, as people won't be able to send a Furbolg on level 2 anymore. I don't think there was any problem with Furbolg, so I don't understand this change (nerf, ok if you want, but leave the lumber costs at 140)

B7:
Mercenary and -li removed completely.
Great

* Golem -- Reduced attack speed to 1.1.
Might be ok, but I would set it to 1.15

* Dragon Aspect -- Price increased to 360 gold.
Doesn't need a nerf.

* Aqua -- Reduced hp by 50.
Aqua is a fun tower, which only is good in the early game, so this is a too big nerf imo. Make it 175 HP instead.

* Elite Archer -- Reduced hp by 100.
Also too much (for example 2 Elite + 1 Archer leak level 4 now, which is kinda meh). 600 HP would be fine imo.

* Dragon Aspect -- Price increased to 360 gold.
I see no reason for a nerf.

* Goblin Land Mines -- replaced with another tier 1 tower (will probably need balance adjustment).
Bad DPS, bad HP, too expensive, not good enough skill. I would lower the upgrade cost to 170. Even then I'm not sure if it would be useful and it generally doesn't fit to the Goblin builder.

* Soul of villian -- Violate armor penalty reduced to -3.
Ok, but then Blood Warlock should follow.

* Changed prophet re-roll prices to the following:
-- 1st re-roll = 50 lumber (starting price)
-- 2nd re-roll = 25 gold, 100 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 3rd re-roll = 50 gold, 150 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 4th re-roll = 75 gold, 200 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
-- 5th re-roll = 100 gold, 250 lumber (+25 gold, +50 lumber)
Sucks, why not allow people to reroll on the first level if they have bad towers (without throwing them back alot)? 0 50/50 100/100 ... was better. Allows a free early reroll while making a hard decision later on

What's the costs and effect of lumberjack level 16?

You guys probably play different than us ENTers, so maybe you don't agree with my points, but imo this version isn't really better balanced than 3.41. I would be happy if you tell the reasoning behind the changes made which I discussed above. Nonetheless I love the non balance related fixes, like auto-Antistuck, no Merc, no -li and flat/even area. If you could implement those features to the 3.41 version it would be great.

[supersexyy]

It's also still buggy I believe? Might as well wait for a stable version.

[Saucer]

@Diablo_

Ah great, thanks for the detailed feedback. I'll have Kongk take a look, as he's in charge of the balance stuff.

But you are probably right in that we play differently from you ENT guys, and that we want different things from the map.

3.5 is a new map going forward. Things will be different and it will probably never satisfy the diehard fans of 3.41 (sorry guys, but I will see what I can do about those technical/non-balance fixes for 3.41).

And of course for every change, somebody will agree or disagree. Can be quite a headache to deal with, but I'm thankful that Kongk is doing most of the work sorting that stuff out.

Generally speaking, I'd say that the recent changes align with the direction that our core group of testers want to see. So that's mostly Clan UC members (the same group that assisted HuanAK in the past).

But we do welcome constructive feedback from everybody, so please keep sharing your thoughts and ideas, even if we don't always see eye to eye on everything. If you guys don't like something, then we'd at the very least like to know about it, and be able to take that into consideration.

Thanks.



@supersexyy

Well, the latest B8 seems to be the least buggy version so far. I would say it's pretty stable now, although it's not meant to be.

Until we reach a final release, it is still very much a "development test map", and we'll be experimenting and changings things along the way.

We might, for example, add a new unit that is completely unbalanced, and just fix it later in another update. None of these updates are guaranteed to be perfectly playable (but they might just happend to work well).

For what it's worth, and I'm obviously biased, but I think B8 is a better map than B4.

[Saucer]

@Diablo_

Oh I see you reached Kongk on our forum. Great.

[eldryan]

@saucer yea I noticed that engineers became absolutely absurd. Was pretty funny.
Mudman being buffed isn't so bad that I see, in that elemental has no late game viability at the moment with only aquas being legit. however it shouldn't be as powerful as an unupped blaster is.

[Saucer]

I know you guys don't like the new Beta much, but...

As a courtesy, we could add a mode shortcut for ENT players that excludes -ns and has the old style King Heal (in Beta 9, the King Heal has been moved to an optional mode).

So we could do something like this:

-ent is shortcut for -ph mm hg gg cb kh

What do you think? or should it be something else?

-ph is a new mode where you can either pick Prophet or Hybrid builder.
-kh is King Heal (instead of a King HP bonus, which is now default in Beta 9).

Keep in mind that -li and Mercenary has been removed from the new Beta map. And you might also be interested to know that Beta 9 will have a new optional -nc (no crossing) mode.




@eldryan
It's mostly Kongk working on the balance, so I won't go into details, but I can tell you that Element will be getting some changes

[supersexyy]

How does a no cross version work? And is the current version stable?

[Saucer]

The no cross mode (-nc) has been added to upcoming Beta 9 (perhaps we'll release it tonight, otherwise in a couple of days).

It works by simply reducing the available build area, so that the middle area is evenly split between the top and bottom players. In other words, the build areas do not overlap but they do border against each other (imagine a line running straight through the middle).

So, for better or worse, this still allows for some collaborative building in middle.

We thought about reducing the area further, so that no middle building is possible at all. But we've decided against that for now. Besides, that should probably be a seperate mode anyways.

Any thoughts on the matter?

As for stable, well... let me get back to you on that when the map has been released for testing for a couple of days

[supersexyy]

When a stable bug-free version has been released I think the 3.5 bot should be updated. Depending on unit balancing we can look at introducing it into the LIHL but that is still a while off.
No cross sounds good but ENT players have a tendency to experiment and come up with OP strats so they might find something

[eldryan]

The no cross mode (-nc) has been added to upcoming Beta 9 (perhaps we'll release it tonight, otherwise in a couple of days).

It works by simply reducing the available build area, so that the middle area is evenly split between the top and bottom players. In other words, the build areas do not overlap but they do border against each other (imagine a line running straight through the middle).

So, for better or worse, this still allows for some collaborative building in middle.

We thought about reducing the area further, so that no middle building is possible at all. But we've decided against that for now. Besides, that should probably be a seperate mode anyways.

Any thoughts on the matter?

As for stable, well... let me get back to you on that when the map has been released for testing for a couple of days

I kind of enjoy aura swapping, and that's definitely harder with this mode. My recommendation would be to simply create a 500 value limit you can build in the middle.