Discussion about peoples behaviour

[Inkocknito]

Hey guys.

I know this is a topic that requires quite some sensitivity. I dont want this to be a thread where people get blackened just for the purpose of flaming. I just feel there has to be something done about this flameculture. I even feel that I get drawn into this myself sometimes. And these things aren't fun at all anymore. Why even tell your oponent "easy" when you are winning in level 17? Why EVER do this?
Yes, I am mad. I am mad if someone in my team does it or someone in the other team. This is just no fun if there is an atmosphere of hate and downgrading.
So maybe there is a chance where you can discuss about people flaming all the time or leaving often or... maybe even do it statistically.

Just a small example.
I played a game where some dude leaves after he gets offended by me and my team because he wants to tell us he is just so bad on elo because he has to play with 3 noobs in every game he joins. Then some other quite mediocre player doesnt heal in 7. This make 1 player mad so he wants to !ff, didn't want to build, send etc. Telling me 13 is stupid and wants to send level 15 while being 3v4. Also he fucks my mother and i suck and we cant win anymore yadda-yadda-yadda.
As it turns out he builds and sends 13 after some discussion and we win the game this level. Let's just call this dude cydd-. I wasnt an angel in this game aswell, but - wtf. ( https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=6780070 )
We cannot let all this happen cause it gets worse and worse every year or even month.


What do you feel like legion has turned to be like over the years? Personally I think 1200+ is even worse. I don't play this not because I suck. I hate it just for the incredibly ignorant people that suck and tell you what to do nevertheless. Do you think there is need of a thread where you discuss about peoples behaviour?

[MarshMallows]

Let's just call this dude cydd-.

So it was cydd- ?

[MarshMallows]

"What do you feel like legion has turned to be like over the years? Personally I think 1200+ is even worse. I don't play this not because I suck. I hate it just for the incredibly ignorant people that suck and tell you what to do nevertheless. Do you think there is need of a thread where you discuss about peoples behaviour?"

No offence man, but you probably do suck. If you are around flame a a lot, it is pretty much always cos you suck. I cannot confirm whether or not you suck, but I give you a 98% probability of suckage.

[ispamcolts]

Regulars on 1200+ have played a number of games in the many hundreds, if not thousands, usually. They have done every standard build dozens upon dozens of times. Through this huge volume of trialling(seeing what works and what doesn't), people have developed a great sense of heuristics(knowing what to do, when to do it), which has led to a huge convergence on how people play, especially in the early stages of the game.This knowledge is taken for granted, and assumed of you when you play 1200+. When someone deviates, it annoys everyone because they immediately see the sub-optimality of the play(e.g. "you could be 6/1 by now and only leak minimally, instead of being 4/0 and holding hard!"), unless it's an interesting idea of mixing units.
This occurs often when people cross into 1200+ from ent18 and get flamed into oblivion for building on the wrong wall, doing an oracle build, building shitty units, not pushing enough etc... People's first response sometimes is to just call them shit and tell them they're noobs, which doesn't help very much. Often though people do give tips and recommend the right path, and sometimes new players listen, but very often they don't because they assume it's very similar to ent18 and they already know their shit("Yeah man I know how to play!" *ups oceanus on 2*). It's a treat when a player says "guys I'm new please give advice here are my units", because you know they'll listen and work in a team.
The worst in my experience is when new players say stuff like "Dude just let me play...you play your game and I'll play mine...it's just a difference of opinion.....OMG you leaked 4-5 units on 6 what a noob....(while you're 7/3 and they're 5/1)", ignoring the objective correctness of their build/play. Or after offering them some advice, they just !ignore you.
So on the one hand, I think people need to be a little more considerate of new players to 1200+, but on the other one can definitely see why people sometimes avoid playing with them, as we've all had an experience where new players refuse to take advice, play poorly and cause you to lose the game. Overall 1200+ is pretty friendly, though you do get the odd bad egg.

[supersexyy]

A few bad eggs in every game. The problem is that the bad eggs often have the biggest mouths!

[Akitos]

Regulars on 1200+ have played a number of games in the many hundreds, if not thousands, usually. They have done every standard build dozens upon dozens of times. Through this huge volume of trialling(seeing what works and what doesn't), people have developed a great sense of heuristics(knowing what to do, when to do it), which has led to a huge convergence on how people play, especially in the early stages of the game.This knowledge is taken for granted, and assumed of you when you play 1200+. When someone deviates, it annoys everyone because they immediately see the sub-optimality of the play(e.g. "you could be 6/1 by now and only leak minimally, instead of being 4/0 and holding hard!"), unless it's an interesting idea of mixing units.
This occurs often when people cross into 1200+ from ent18 and get flamed into oblivion for building on the wrong wall, doing an oracle build, building shitty units, not pushing enough etc... People's first response sometimes is to just call them shit and tell them they're noobs, which doesn't help very much. Often though people do give tips and recommend the right path, and sometimes new players listen, but very often they don't because they assume it's very similar to ent18 and they already know their shit("Yeah man I know how to play!" *ups oceanus on 2*). It's a treat when a player says "guys I'm new please give advice here are my units", because you know they'll listen and work in a team.
The worst in my experience is when new players say stuff like "Dude just let me play...you play your game and I'll play mine...it's just a difference of opinion.....OMG you leaked 4-5 units on 6 what a noob....(while you're 7/3 and they're 5/1)", ignoring the objective correctness of their build/play. Or after offering them some advice, they just !ignore you.
So on the one hand, I think people need to be a little more considerate of new players to 1200+, but on the other one can definitely see why people sometimes avoid playing with them, as we've all had an experience where new players refuse to take advice, play poorly and cause you to lose the game. Overall 1200+ is pretty friendly, though you do get the odd bad egg.

^ this!

I personaly have absolutly no problem with players coming from mega/euro and i appreciate new players, mostly because i need low elo guys on my team anyway to gain elo, and most of the time they'll listen to my early game advice and are doing good... But sometimes you get those Dunning Kruger guys who just won't listen and are like "dude play your own game", like colts already said. Quotes like those are the ones that let you immediatly spot an extremly bad player, because a good player knows that "playing your own game" also includes playing WITH your team and according to what your team is doing, therefore you're also playing "his" game... Yesterday i had a very special case of mega/euro players that just make you want to pull your hair out and/or make them stop playing and never return to ltd or at least 1,2k+ bot.

What happened:
He started off with Sea Giant lvl 1. Since i knew he was rather new i asked him what else he got and if he rerolled yet, aka i wanted to help him out; he didn't answer tho. They sent warriors and we leaked big to king, so he wasn't as screwed as u usually are getting wars into Giant. As it turned out he also had Sentry, which he added for lvl 2. For lvl 3 he wanted to add another Sentry instead of upping to Nightsabre, luckily he discovered that a chat exists and listened to me to instead upgrade the Sentry he already had. Being happy about the fact that he listened i told him how to continue his build, which is extremly straight foward; get Hydra for 5... I told him how much gold he'd get round 3 & 4 and that he holds lvl 4 with what he has and that he just has to save some gold from round 3 to get Hydra for 5 and then fullpush after; very simple right...? Then i did the mistake to focus on my own build for just a minute and when i watched his lane again i saw that he made another Sentry for level 4 and upgraded it for level 5... So yeah, he then had 1 Sea Giant and 2 Nightsabres instead of the Hydra. As we know Sentry + Upgrade costs 100g less than a Hydra, so one might think he would've at least used the suboptimal build to push 2 wisps earlier, but guess what, he instead saved the 100g extra; being 2/0 and saying he wants Hydra now... After he had the Hydra i told him he should finaly start pushing and don't stop until he's at least 7/4, he pushed 7/3 somewhat straight (ofc with, in my eyes, a lot of time wasted inbetween the upgrades). During 8 he had enough gold for 7/4 and couldn't have made a second Hydra anyway, so i told him to please go 7/4 since we already had a good 10 anyway (me on wyvs and someone else on archer); he refused. And now the real fun shall begin... Around 30 seconds before 10 started he suddenly began pushing for 7/4 and saved 140 gold; the best thing about this: He later explained that he kept gold to upgrade king! LITERALLY!!!! We all went /6 after 10, luckily him aswell and he started massing Hydras, so i thought finaly the pain is over, wrong... During round 13 (we saved for 15) he suddenly pushed /7 stating that he holds 13 with what he has and that he can easily /7... So yeah... People like this are the reason 1,2k+ players flame. So @OP if you're being flamed on 1,2k+ you're probably somewhat like this guy, most likely not as bad tho... I encounter close to no flaming on 1,2k+ bots and if i ever do it's mostly myself raging after i tried a billion times to help new players while being nice and they refused to listen because they "knew better".

[SLSGuennter]

Just dont listen to "cydd-" and you are fine

Anyway, the books written by colts and aki do pretty much describe the whole thing ^^

[Kaouaille]

Inkocknito > I'd say most of the time, people troll because they have been trolled in the first place, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
Ppeople troll because they have a strong desire for revenge ... And that occurs in several cases :
- Most of the time, because they have been trolled in the first place, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
- They're outnumbered (due to ragequit, votekick, crash, etc.) or one of their ally suck hard.
- At some point, they thought they'd lose ... so when the turnaround comes, they let go all their frustration off.
- They have a permanent desire for revenge because their life sucks.

I don't think there's any obvious solution to this.

I'm used to be trolled, and eventually I got myself used to trolling in response.
To me, it's just a strange way of communicating.
What really pisses me, is when people just don't give a shit, don't want to talk, don't want to improve, just want to play their shit.
I mean, not only are we playing an online game, but it's a team game.

I guess people care more about each other on 1200+ since people get to know each other, and are obviously more committed into this game, so my analysis is mostly based on the public bot.

Regulars on 1200+ have played a number of games in the many hundreds, if not thousands, usually. They have done every standard build dozens upon dozens of times. Through this huge volume of trialling(seeing what works and what doesn't), people have developed a great sense of heuristics(knowing what to do, when to do it), which has led to a huge convergence on how people play, especially in the early stages of the game.This knowledge is taken for granted, and assumed of you when you play 1200+. When someone deviates, it annoys everyone because they immediately see the sub-optimality of the play(e.g. "you could be 6/1 by now and only leak minimally, instead of being 4/0 and holding hard!"), unless it's an interesting idea of mixing units.

Actually, I played one 1200+ game (and won it), but I was really pissed because people seem to know what they're doing but to me they just play by the book. The playstyle is way too standard and, to me, full of flaws.
I've got different backgrounds on LTD (1v1 for more than 6 months, 4v4 for a couple months now), and a huge background on a lot of RTS games, and I really hate the way people just seem to have a plan on 1200+ and DON'T WANT TO DEVIATE FROM IT (like you said).
If the game was really so simple that everyone would end up having the same "optimal strategy", then what would be the point of playing it ?
Obviously, I think it's much more complicated than that, and that's why I really disliked that one game I played in 1200+.

I much rather try "leading" on public games (I insist on the try because some people don't even speak), at least it's challenging.


And it's never predictable, because you also have to deal with noobs' mistakes, and re-define your strategy according to it.

(that last sentence is a joke ... well, it's a bit true though )

[nabo.]

Inkocknito > I'd say most of the time, people troll because they have been trolled in the first place, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
Ppeople troll because they have a strong desire for revenge ... And that occurs in several cases :
- Most of the time, because they have been trolled in the first place, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
- They're outnumbered (due to ragequit, votekick, crash, etc.) or one of their ally suck hard.
- At some point, they thought they'd lose ... so when the turnaround comes, they let go all their frustration off.
- They have a permanent desire for revenge because their life sucks.

I don't think there's any obvious solution to this.

I'm used to be trolled, and eventually I got myself used to trolling in response.
To me, it's just a strange way of communicating.
What really pisses me, is when people just don't give a shit, don't want to talk, don't want to improve, just want to play their shit.
I mean, not only are we playing an online game, but it's a team game.

Good opinion. There are many causes and reasons why people may troll. In the end, it is all about how mentally mature and tolerant they are.

I guess people care more about each other on 1200+ since people get to know each other, and are obviously more committed into this game, so my analysis is mostly based on the public bot.

Probably so. The more people know you, the less likely you will not care. Ex. pub vs league

Actually, I played one 1200+ game (and won it), but I was really pissed because people seem to know what they're doing but to me they just play by the book. The playstyle is way too standard and, to me, full of flaws.
I've got different backgrounds on LTD (1v1 for more than 6 months, 4v4 for a couple months now), and a huge background on a lot of RTS games, and I really hate the way people just seem to have a plan on 1200+ and DON'T WANT TO DEVIATE FROM IT (like you said).
If the game was really so simple that everyone would end up having the same "optimal strategy", then what would be the point of playing it ?
Obviously, I think it's much more complicated than that, and that's why I really disliked that one game I played in 1200+.

The way some people play, they yolo wrong thinking that pushing is everything. So, I agree to certain extent, but in the end the player with the highest value and income is the one that is doing the best with the given rolls he has.

I much rather try "leading" on public games (I insist on the try because some people don't even speak), at least it's challenging.

This is very good. A lot of players complain about noobs and newbs and their imcompatibility and crappy teamwork. Imo the solution to this problem is to either teach them the game or effectively communicate leading them to win.

And it's never predictable, because you also have to deal with noobs' mistakes, and re-define your strategy according to it.

Public games = random variables. So yes, you gotta adjust to the players. Those who can adjust to others' gameplay are the ones who are most desirable teammates.

[supersexyy]

"but in the end the player with the highest value and income is the one that is doing the best with the given rolls he has"

Kinda irrelevant and but this is wrong.

[Kaouaille]

"but in the end the player with the highest value and income is the one that is doing the best with the given rolls he has"

Kinda irrelevant and but this is wrong.

I was about to comment this too.
(nota : What I'm gonna say is totally off-topic ("peoples behaviour")
nota 2 : I'm banned but I have to quench my thirst for LTD, so I do it here )

I also think it's not relevant, though it might be true on the long term, IF (lots of conditions ) people don't play with that idea in mind.
I've played a few games on Czech/Slovakian bot, and people tend to overbuild so that they can catch other ppl leaks, and thus be the value-leader (which can be terrible sometimes, because you expect to get back in shared amounts the gold from the leaks, and that does not happen when a noob overbuilds : the 3 other players sometimes never catch up in terms of value because of that).

To me the best player is simply the one who wins most (with team mates of equal level). There are 2 ways to have an impact on the game :

- Leading, or more precisely : doing what it takes to improve the teamplay : making the right calls (offensive strategy - that's the easiest part of the leading - which doesn't mean it's easy), also trying (hard to force other ppl to build what you want them to build, so I insist on "trying") to elaborate a defensive strategy, by balancing the team ability to resist, which can take various forms, one of them being the attack/armor type (to put it simply : if you have grizzlies and you're sure you will hold 17 AND catch leaks, you may ask one of your team mates who has druids to start preparing round 20).
Also, the leader has to understand what kind of game this is (low/high income, low/high value, etc.), thus understand when it's gonna end, or eventually CHOSE what kind of game it's going to be (it's hard to have an impact on that, but it's possible - income sending every round can help holding 17+ and thus force a round 20+/31 game (sometimes you'd rather send 15 to force your opponent spending his lumber on King upgrades).
This obviously has consequences (the most obvious one is that you won't push lumber after arena if you know the game ends 14/15. If you're sure it ends 17, you probably won't do it either (in some cases you would do it, but I'm not here to give a tactical lesson ^^).

- To optimize its own ability to defend AND to attack ("economy"/lumber), without forgetting the team needs(being able to catch others' leaks even if it requires to overbuild, if that's what it takes to survive / to be able to avoid spending lumber in king upgrades and thus be able to re-send).
Sometimes the team optimisation requires that one player catches most bosses (someone with zeus or wolverines, for instance), and the 3 other push hard. With your way of thinking ("best value/income is the best player"), everyone would try to catch its 3 bosses.
A good player would also try to reduce the risk by not rolling too much and sticking to its tower as much as he can, because sometimes what you roll is just worse than what you had.
That principle of optimization is pretty simple, it's the execution that's hard. Actually, even some good players doesn't understand what optimization REALLY is about, since they try to be good (or even great), which is never enough : optimization is reached only when you're doing the best.
Basically, this second part is also related to the teamplay part, since a good leader has to make sure that not only HE plays well, but also his 3 team mates.

Anyway, my opinion is : there is no such thing as a "one best way". (and I hate 1200+ because ppl seem to think there is)

[nabo.]

The optimal build that people recently thought of (before the release of the new map) was to hold/semi-hold certain waves and "yolo" or push hard building up a very unbalanced high income recovering after 10 and taking advantage of clogging. As you said, there are times where a player will benefit more from overbuilding and picking up leaks vs pushing wisp/lumber and there are times when players gotta give up to hold certain levels due to their rolls. Knowing when to push and when to build more or pushing as much as you can while just building enough to hold your wave is what i consider being "optimal". It simply means you do whats best with w/e variables you are given with.

Making the right calls and leading your team is very important indeed, but this is not about a player and his performance in the game with his given rolls. I do think though that it is noteworthy that you mentioned about deciding what type of game to play. Anticipating whether the pace of the game will be fast or slow due to slow kililng towers or leaks, anticipating when enemy will send and deciding whether to try and win before that or after leading to push extra to send harder before or sending and valuing harder to be able to hold, etc are important decisions player(s) gotta make.

Rolls do matter, but the one who has the towers that are able to hold the lvls that must be defended with the highest value and income in the team is certainly the one who is best in his game imo. Just because someone manages better than others with a weaker roll doesnt mean he is doing the best for the particular game. Maybe effective is better choice of word, but anyway, I just wanted to point that numbers dont lie. LTD is about making the best decisions and doing the best calculation afterall. There is no one way, ill agree, but there is always a best way for every scenario.

[Kaouaille]

About that "optimal build" you're talking about : indeed, I assumed it was really common in 1200+ to push the lumber very, very hard. But I think this work mostly because of the lack of adaptation of the opposing team (common idea is that you have to save lumber to be efficient). When the opposing team is undervalued, sometimes you have to send EVERY round (even sending round 9 can be good : someone may hold but if you make 2/3 players leak, after they already leaked 7 and 8, not only will you "kill" them, but the "holder" won't get more than 20-30% gold).

[nabo.]

Pushing really hard was really rewarding in the past because clogging gave players a lot of time to accumulate more lumber.

Sending every level usually does not work. But, the idea that sometimes it is better to send more often is true AS LONG AS there are leaks and your team will be able to handle stronger sends assuming the opposite team does not have to use much lumber on king to defend.

Yes, there are certain levels people in pub dont send as often like lvl 9. If you play more 2v2, you will see that lvls such as lvl 6, 9 and others are sent more often. In lihl, I see people sometimes sending lvl 4 6 9, etc to ruin someone's yolo. Maybe you will enjoy lihl. Try applying for vouch.

[Akitos]

Actually, I played one 1200+ game (and won it), but I was really pissed because people seem to know what they're doing but to me they just play by the book.

Are you seriously argueing about how people play on the 1,2k+ bot after playing ONE GAME? I don't even feel like responding to any of this, considering your opinion is based on ONE GAME... D: