Kiwi swap out 2 players for 3s game lihl44u

[BoretkPanda]

I'm just wondering what would the replies be if this didn't happen to supreme, but to someone popular in lihl. Every thread is the same, always.

It happened quiet often that people signed for 2s and refused to fill. Why
Should people get forced to play sth they didn't sign for? BTW I think it's bs also that u can veto obs but not swaps

[KiwiLeKiller]

Let's summarize things a little:

I signed to play a 3s game, n1ll3 took a while to join and while we were waiting for him to join, inQ and SupremeBeing joined the game. I refused to swap them in and I started the game. Supreme is the only single player I actively dodge in this league and I do not need to explain why; I am not the only one to dodge him anyway.

If Supreme was to be swapped in, I would not have played and I would've rather sit, so the game would still be a 3s and Supreme would still sit. So all this discussion doesn't make any sense since, following common sense, it all null itself. If it wasn't Supreme that would've joined, none of this would've happened. This guy behaves poorly and plays poorly, he doesn't get to force himself in the games I play.

Also, he didn't follow the 2 hours rule... What about it?

##

There appears to be a rule about 4s being prioritized, which I didn't know existed. The wiki is not updated and the rule thread has been moved to archived.

This rule also doesn't make much sense, because if I sign for a game, I expect to play with those players and on this mode (2s, 3s or 4s). When I sign for a game, I willingly decide if I want to play this lobby with those players or if I want to dodge. With this rule, this is impossible to do so. Also, if we follow the logic besides this rule, if I sign for 4s, and that 2 players don't show up, do we have to play 3s? Don't think so, but it follows the thinking process behind this rule. In my opinion, we don't need such rule.

[Meshtar]

The fact that this rule isn't in the wiki and that people forgot about it surely isn't your fault, so yeh mods can be lenient in this case, since this hasn't happened in quite a while. On the other hand rule quite simply says 4s has highest priority and no one can veto any player, only observers. There were 2 right ways for you to handle this if you have such strong feelings against playing with supreme:
1. Jihad him so you are sure you aren't in the same team
2. If 1. isn't an option cause he doesn't want or someone vetoes then just ask to be swapped out then.
Sure it would suck if you are to miss the game you were signed for, but you are the one with the grudge, not supreme.
Hell, I don't like playing with like half the lihl tbh, but I never vetoed or dodged anyone once I sign for the game. People should really start acting as if we really were a close-knit, hand-picked community and 3/4 of the crap and reports wouldn't happen at all. Those who don't belong in such community by attitude or skill should be removed from it quite simply and in a more efficient way than what we had so far

[DJ.FM]

I pretty much don't agree with everything you said here said kiwi and it seems the rules going forward will be having to swap in players (not having a go at you personally.

Two easy fixes here : clearly state that players must be swapped in we are a small community I think it's important for issues like this not to come up again.

Secondly supremes game play is very poor and I would of done the same as kiwi so I get were your coming from.

[HazarDous]

Edited swapping rule as follows to make it more clear (rule remains the same)

If a player disagrees with an observer to be swapped in, and that obs has earned his spot (!roll, given by someone else, etc.), then the refusing player shall step aside.

About the rule, they are conflicting, since the rule-update says that it's mandatory to play the 4v4, and in the wiki it says that you can swap out.

No, they're not conflicting. Whatever rule we make, neither ENT nor LIHL Staff can force someone to play a game for which he does not want to play. If X player doesn't want to play 4s or 3s, and he signs for 2s, then the only game-setup he is liable for is the 2s. He is free to "step aside" from game when other obs join and demand to be swapped in accordingly to rule-update (viewtopic.php?f=207&t=130552)

If a 2v2 or 3v3 game is hosted and enough people join the observer slots and want to participate, we make it mandatory from now on to swap them in, to make it a 3v3 or 4v4.

Now, I am not contesting your interpretation that Kiwi acted in bad faith, I simply don't know that. The problem with the situation was more complex: they were 8 players (DJ stated he could not play), Kiwi refused to play with Supreme, which is his right, so they were truly only 7 players. Who gets to play the 3s? Kiwi who signed first and waited "a lot" to play but refuse to play with Supreme, Inq who came late, or Supreme who came late?

1. Meshtar mentioned the option Kiwi had to jihad vs Supreme. If it fails... (probable, given skill discrepancy)
2. Wait for 9th player and swap Kiwi out for 4s. (Depends if players want to wait and how long they waited so far)
3. If 2. fails, who gets to play? Kiwi, Inq or Supreme?

I'm fine with the argument that Supreme should not suffer from the fact that Kiwi is dodging him, but this is a lose-lose situation for everyone anyway. If Inq plays the 3s, both Supreme and Kiwi are penalized by Kiwi's refusal. If Supreme plays, Kiwi is penalized because he waited a while to finally bench. If Kiwi plays, Supreme is indeed penalized, but at least he knows he can sign/join every single other following games and play them, while Kiwi will be forced not to sign and bench the following games.



Anyways, this is my interpretation. An unvouch for this situation would be pretty shady given the circumstances (unknown rules not on the wiki, no precedent set for such a situation, no clear-cut "good" thing to do). Also a reminder that no one can be forced to play by any rule for something he did not sign for and genuinely doesn't want to play (new player, new setup). I will wait for LIHL Staff to clarify the rule before I add it to the wiki. Finally, if LIHL Staff concludes that Kiwi acted precipitately and/or in bad faith, they may still unvouch him for behaving contrarily to LIHL's values.

[Meshtar]

The interpretation is quite clear to me. It is Kiwi's right not to play a game he didn't sign for (4s), but its not his right to decide someone else doesn't get to play. Who would play instead of him inq or supreme is irrelevant, it can be decided with !roll or as mentioned they could simply wait for another player, with Kiwi becoming observer. Everything else is abuse. Also, I agree that this case should be used primarily to clarify the rules for future cases, rather than punishment, because rules were somewhat convoluted. As for the bad faith argument, that would stand if we were a mature acting, friendly and competitive environment for real, but lets face it, we are far from that, so this episode is nothing out of ordinary, just a usual day in lihl.

[dweiler]

Let's just be honest, it's a huge dick action to swap 2 people out of the game because you don't want them in. Sometimes you are lucky, and you can get away with being a dick, because there are no rules against it. Now there are, so I call it Karma, and a nice long ban is totally satisfying and justified here (especially with his history of dick actions in LIHL).

[Crazy_Skeleton]

1. This guy behaves poorly and plays poorly, he doesn't get to force himself in the games I play.
This post is not vs me but vs U- stay to the topic. What is more, go improve urself 1st.
2. I worte on discord very friendly to him porposing peace, etc. He ignored me - here is his attitude.
3. Kiwi as received owner immidiatly kicked out the obs. I told him he can not due to the rules but he started the game. All happened in 7 seconds, so please do not spam shit here that he did not know the rule, that there were no more players etc. KIWI DID NOT CARE!

Kiwi kicked out the players and started game immidiatly. End of story.

Ofc if there was 3s game Kiwi has the right to play not me. It is obvious af.

[BoretkPanda]

1. This guy behaves poorly and plays poorly, he doesn't get to force himself in the games I play.
This post is not vs me but vs U- stay to the topic. What is more, go improve urself 1st.
2. I worte on discord very friendly to him porposing peace, etc. He ignored me - here is his attitude.
3. Kiwi as received owner immidiatly kicked out the obs. I told him he can not due to the rules but he started the game. All happened in 7 seconds, so please do not spam shit here that he did not know the rule, that there were no more players etc. KIWI DID NOT CARE!

Kiwi kicked out the players and started game immidiatly. End of story.

Ofc if there was 3s game Kiwi has the right to play not me. It is obvious af.

Actually u can kick obs.

[Crazy_Skeleton]

1. This guy behaves poorly and plays poorly, he doesn't get to force himself in the games I play.
This post is not vs me but vs U- stay to the topic. What is more, go improve urself 1st.
2. I worte on discord very friendly to him porposing peace, etc. He ignored me - here is his attitude.
3. Kiwi as received owner immidiatly kicked out the obs. I told him he can not due to the rules but he started the game. All happened in 7 seconds, so please do not spam shit here that he did not know the rule, that there were no more players etc. KIWI DID NOT CARE!

Kiwi kicked out the players and started game immidiatly. End of story.

Ofc if there was 3s game Kiwi has the right to play not me. It is obvious af.

Actually u can kick obs.

Did U read what admins write here? U must allow swap for 4s.

[KiwiLeKiller]

Let's just be honest, it's a huge dick action to swap 2 people out of the game because you don't want them in. Sometimes you are lucky, and you can get away with being a dick, because there are no rules against it. Now there are, so I call it Karma, and a nice long ban is totally satisfying and justified here (especially with his history of dick actions in LIHL).

I don't know what is your problem Mick, you seem to hold grudge against me out of nowhere. As for my history, I haven't been unvouched for a very long moment. In the past, I had my flaws, which I worked on and I fixed. Now, let's not make this about something else.

[dweiler]

I don't know what is your problem Mick, you seem to hold grudge against me out of nowhere. As for my history, I haven't been unvouched for a very long moment. In the past, I had my flaws, which I worked on and I fixed. Now, let's not make this about something else.

Just to be sure, I just love trolling the forum a bit, I don't really enjoy an unvouch for you . A bit of clarification of the rules would not hurt though!

[nicolai123]

The people who are signed have the power. Period. If you are an obs you are LUCKY if they let u in their game, since it is not your sign. If you wanna play, sign before lobby starts, else go fuck urself with your entitlement.

[Anda]

Kiwi the kind of guy that sets a volleyball session at 15 00 and 2 additional teammates unexpectedly join in late. Ur the first person i ever saw saying no i cant stand 1 of you guys, so both of you dont get to play.
Rules aside, in my sportsclub those people would get evicted asap.
Love you bro, but this just is rubbish.

[Tom_hardy]

So after a lot of discussion about this, we came to the conclusion that we wont ban for this behaviour in this specific case. It has nothing to do with supremes special situation here, but rather two different positions we were not able to get a consensus on.

1. Kiwi decides not to play a game he has not signed for, which could be considered his right. Hence, since there are not enough players for a 4s (mandatory mode) without him, the original game remains, and he didnt do anything.

2. Since kiwi decides to invoke his right on not playing a game he hasnt signed for, he should not have a right to play the game as it is, since dodging somebody should never be other peoples problem. In that case, it would be between inq and supreme who gets to play the 3s.

This definitly is a special case and there will be a rule implementation for it soonish, as of now, no ban applied.

But one thing is for sure, that was very dickheaded and bullying behaviour (not just play together just because of 1 person you dont like) and I would really like you to reflect on that. Consider this a behaviour warning, if something similar comes up, there will be consequences the next time.

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