Microing King to not attack units

[matdas]

King juggle is not meant for public games. The rule implies that the king must attack creeps. Thus players who want to income can only do so until the creeps are dead. What also falls under this rule are those who want to kill the king by juggling. Thus the rule prevents the glitch abuse of gaining more lumber and suiciding the king.

[Krumme]

@Agreements could be but I doubt it would have a real affect since it's very rare unit go to king before someone teleport mid (in LIHL)
It's only when you cross and you fail delaying well enough or the other side leaks it can be real effective imo (public)

[Bond009]

I understand all points of view and where they are coming from, but its just dumb to get banned for something that just seems like reflex and common sense to do, i mean why not just make the king auto micro that would be easy to code.. just have the king first target units that are biggest threat first etc.. but the thing is.. The king is micro-able for a reason..

Now i fully agree its stupid to use it to abuse time for mass incoming etc, its a waste of ppls time no need for debate sure make that bannable no question. But to use it in key situations like i described it shouldn't be banned.. If someone came here and posted a replay of someone doing the king micro with something as innocent as that you would really ban them from the game for it? lol I know the rule was set there to protect the pubs but then ban them for not even doing it for the actual banned reason.

Right? lets face it that ban was placed becuz it was unanimous that it was abuse for time wasting delay for income and it was annoying in-game. These more in depth hypothetical situations werent brought up at that time the rule was put in place.

But anyway Im fine for it at least being for the HR bot (lihl) but bottom line its still stupid to ban pubs from the bot if they used the king in the manner i described in prior posts.

[Avatar_Ship]

[/quote]If you guys want to give blinded 1 way answers then i can see we are done discussing here.[/quote]

The only blind 1 way response seems to be yours. If the game meant for the king to optionally not attack creeps, there would be an in game option for doing so (a button), rather than having to exploit an in-game mechanic glitch to accomplish this.

Yes, it would be nice if some of the glitches were fixed (such as units not teleporting back to the king), but you don't justify exploiting one game mechanic to compensate for another. As they said, if it's simply a question of one side leaking, and that leak reaches the king, then deliberately preventing the king from attacking to deny the other team the bounty from having caused one side to leak is unfair and should be a banning offense.

[matdas]

Just don't juggle king. Problem solved. Using something that is not intended in the game (king not attacking) is a violation. We as ENT try to make the games as fair as possible. Unless you want to view a 4 hour legion game on why juggling is one of the worst things to do in a game, i see no reason to change the rule.

And i am sure you don't want to sit in a juggle fest for a few hours on lvl 3. For I know that if you really want a dull boring game, that is a complete waste of time.

[Diablo_]

There's so much wrong logic in here.
OP's suggestion is a legit one, ofc such a change isn't really needed but it would create room for skilled and tactical king usage with no real drawback (except of having 1 more rule).

Especially @ matdas, there's nowhere a single word about allowing king juggle in general.

[Bond009]

Just don't juggle king. Problem solved. Using something that is not intended in the game (king not attacking) is a violation. We as ENT try to make the games as fair as possible. Unless you want to view a 4 hour legion game on why juggling is one of the worst things to do in a game, i see no reason to change the rule.

And i am sure you don't want to sit in a juggle fest for a few hours on lvl 3. For I know that if you really want a dull boring game, that is a complete waste of time.

lol yea its obvious matdas didn't read this thread at all..

[matdas]

Now i know you cant use the King to not attack units to prolong a game for income abuse etc as a general rule..

But in certain situations I think this is an ok thing to do, for example if your ally leaked and you arnt done killing your lane's units yet so your units don't go down to catch them in time from delay or the game being stupid with not sending units down right away. I think its fine to micro the king to not kill the units until your units get down to kill the leaks so that you don't have to share your units gold with the enemy team.
It the one thing u can micro and control in the game and i think using it in this way is fine, am i right?

Reference. First post. Try reading it yourself. I am merely stating why not allowing the king to attack is a bad idea. Unless you want people to go into the loop hole and anti stuck their own units so they can lumber more cus the "units didnt make it to the king". Just because you all think i dont read, just proves how ignorant you really are.

Think about it for a minute. For I have to look at all sides. Not just "oh its to prevent the other team from getting gold" but its not just that. You will have people find loop holes and such and attempt to get away with it.

@Diablo_ "there's nowhere a single word about allowing king juggle in general."
I thought highly of you, now your ignorance led to your downfall. You of all people should know that preventing the king from attacking is called juggling. Or am I mistaken that a LIHL moderator has no idea what juggling is and that it is included in your own rules? Just because the terminology is catering to the less fortunate legion terms, doesn't mean it isn't clearly stated.
Edit: The logic isn't wrong. preventing king from attacking falls into a few categories:
1. Suicide king
2. Delaying game from progressing
3. Gaining unnecessary lumber time for infinite length.

@Bond009 I am stating the reasons why allowing juggling the would not be acceptable per your first post.

Both of you should re-read this thread.

[Bond009]

Yeah that's fine, but first posts don't always explain a thread in its entirety though, i got more detailed with what i was saying because others also kinda bent what i was trying to say so i broke it down. My post had nothing to do about juggling a king to prolong or abuse a mechanic in the LTD game nor did i say that i support it. I was just pointing out things that were ok in some special circumstances that were also being blocked by the general rule put in place on the king.. Kings make rules they don't always have to follow them! lol :p

Also none of you guys probably know me well becuz i never really made a proper introduce yourself on this forum, but I'm the creator of Custom Hero Footies and me and my gf also played ltd a good amount on down time and we got pretty good, in fact me and my team, which consisted of (Me, my younger sis, my gf, and me again on another computer in some games) Placed in 2nd in the first ENT LTD mega tournament about a year ago or so.. Just before that we were the ones that got this cross lane phenomenon started (regret..) "But that tactic was never used in the tourny games gladly" we first did it with normal builder and merc, then changed it to be both builders and did a income strat, we did this for about a month maybe then stopped playing ltd for a long while. We just came back to LTD a few months ago and i see I have wrecked this game... 90% of games are now cross and if u dont cross ur chances of winning vs it are slim with pubs on ur team.
Anyway just trying to help balance some mechanics of the game now while im back into it a little.

[matdas]

But what you state are the consequences of cross building.

[Diablo_]

You still don't get it.
Everyone knows that king juggle is not allowed (at least after the first few posts of this thread where the OP at first wasn't sure whether it's also banable to juggle in said situation or not, but again, he was fully aware that king juggle in general is not allowed), OP is saying that there is one situation where king juggle should be allowed, in his opinion.
So it makes absolutely no sense to say "just dont king juggle, problem solved" nor is there any sense in saying that it's not allowed because it can be abused to delay a game for hours, because that simply has nothing to do with this thread and OP even mentioned that himself.

You know, using Antistuck to delay your towers coming to the king is against the rules, so there goes your loophole (and makes your side blow to me not knowing the rules even more ridiculous).

@Diablo_ "there's nowhere a single word about allowing king juggle in general."
I thought highly of you, now your ignorance led to your downfall. You of all people should know that preventing the king from attacking is called juggling. Or am I mistaken that a LIHL moderator has no idea what juggling is and that it is included in your own rules? Just because the terminology is catering to the less fortunate legion terms, doesn't mean it isn't clearly stated.
Edit: The logic isn't wrong. preventing king from attacking falls into a few categories:
1. Suicide king
2. Delaying game from progressing
3. Gaining unnecessary lumber time for infinite length.

Again, this doesn't make any sense at all. All I can say to that is, sorry, no shit sherlock. I totally didn't know that king juggling is not allowed and I totally didn't know that this thread is about that.

I'll try it again: This thread is not about allowing king juggle in general. This thread is not about answering the question if king juggle is allowed or not (maybe OP wasn't sure for that specific use but even if it has been answered in the first few posts). This thread is about whether this specific use of juggle SHOULD be allowed or not.

[Bond009]

But what you state are the consequences of cross building.

yeah i explained cross building in my post above 'Edit', the thing is, that's what the game has become i guess and now its time to role with the punches.. Sometimes things are just excepted and you gotta bend rules to fit it in the appropriate time.. I had no idea that strat would in time become a dominant game changing strat..

[matdas]

He brought up a situation. I responded. It falls under attempting to suicide king. Just because you do not see it as such, doesn't mean it is allowable in the situation.

Neither of you have the privilege of reading the idiocy of reasoning behind why people think that they can juggle the king. Units leaked to the king are meant to be killed by the king. As per the way the game is designed. The excuses of "I was juggling so i could get more kills cus i crossed" or "i juggled cus i kill to slow and wanted more gold" is not reason enough. Juggling in that sense is seen as attempt to kill the king. And can be kickable and bannable offense.

As an ENT admin, it is our responsibility to make the games fair. People can say that they are juggling for their own benefit, but in actuality they kill the king, thus ruining the game. Which is why juggling is against the rules. If you want to do it to gain an advantage, which is using the game mechanics in a way it was not designed, then you will face ban time.

You gain control over the king to kill weaker units, sends, and use shock wave and stomp.

Using anti stuck and people can claim they are "catching leaks". I can go back and forth with you on this with you forever. I can seee both sides, and i see that juggling in any instance would be bad for the game as a whole.

yeah i explained cross building in my post above 'Edit', the thing is, that's what the game has become i guess and now its time to role with the punches.. Sometimes things are just excepted and you gotta bend rules to fit it in the appropriate time..

Cross correctly and you wont have to deal with the units getting stuck. Or dont cross at all.

Making exceptions to rules at certain points makes it more difficult to moderate. Not only that, if we have to go through countless replays at 35 minutes or longer and turns out that the juggle was for the crosser it is unnecessary work on the admins. We do this in our free time, we do not get paid. We get aggravated when people constantly submit wrongful ban requests.

Not only are the reasons included in the other posts, this is also another reason. We dedicate our time to help you. We try to make it easy for you as well as easy for us. Making exceptions for a glitch in the game mechanics of gaining 100% bounty when they clearly shouldn't is beyond fair play.

[Diablo_]

Units leaked to the king are meant to be killed by the king. As per the way the game is designed.

Oh really? Why is it allowed to use Antistuck to catch leaks then? You see, that's where your logic is flawed and throwing the "king juggle is not allowed" phrase out dozens of times won't help you either because that has nothing to do with this thread and we all know that aswell.

I can seee both sides, and i see that juggling in any instance would be bad for the game as a whole.

Making exceptions to rules at certain points makes it more difficult to moderate. Not only that, if we have to go through countless replays at 35 minutes or longer and turns out that the juggle was for the crosser it is unnecessary work on the admins. We do this in our free time, we do not get paid. We get aggravated when people constantly submit wrongful ban requests.

Not only are the reasons included in the other posts, this is also another reason. We dedicate our time to help you. We try to make it easy for you as well as easy for us. Making exceptions for a glitch in the game mechanics of gaining 100% bounty when they clearly shouldn't is beyond fair play.

But well, after all you finally got it and posted some arguments which aren't offtopic and/or simply wrong.

[matdas]

Units leaked to the king are meant to be killed by the king. As per the way the game is designed.

Oh really? Why is it allowed to use Antistuck to catch leaks then? You see, that's where your logic is flawed and throwing the "king juggle is not allowed" phrase out dozens of times won't help you either because that has nothing to do with this thread and we all know that aswell.

I can seee both sides, and i see that juggling in any instance would be bad for the game as a whole.

Making exceptions to rules at certain points makes it more difficult to moderate. Not only that, if we have to go through countless replays at 35 minutes or longer and turns out that the juggle was for the crosser it is unnecessary work on the admins. We do this in our free time, we do not get paid. We get aggravated when people constantly submit wrongful ban requests.

Not only are the reasons included in the other posts, this is also another reason. We dedicate our time to help you. We try to make it easy for you as well as easy for us. Making exceptions for a glitch in the game mechanics of gaining 100% bounty when they clearly shouldn't is beyond fair play.

But well, after all you finally got it and posted some arguments which aren't offtopic and/or simply wrong.

Why is anti stuck allowed? Because i wasn't around when the rules were made. I am 100% against using anti stuck for purposes other than its intended use of getting stuck units to move. Even so, just because i believe it is not allowed, doesn't mean that the other staff members want it that way. It's around because people like you (those who abused it and then went to LIHL where they can't anymore), want the advantages that come from the uses of it.
Not only that, it was used as an example. And was on topic. You however, kept with it and did not understand the reasoning behind why it is mentioned.

But well, after all you finally got it and posted some arguments which aren't offtopic and/or simply wrong.

So going against you means i am wrong and off topic. Nice way to look at it. You should join some other people i know who think this way too. Since I am a forum moderator should i just remove what i believe is wrong or off topic because it is against my views? No. I can debate this with you too, but that would be way off topic.

However, since you keep derailing this to about me and i about you, instead of the topic it is now locked. and moved to archives. If you wish for a rule change post in suggestions. Any other comments from this in this section will be removed.