New Vouches

[eldryan]

Some sort of protection mechanism needs to be put in place for new vouches. Having a 1k elo player as a newly vouched destroys the auto-balance mechanic's function. A long time ago I made some suggestions that either:

a. There be a no-cross LIHL Clan bot for high ranked pubs, with the highest elo every month or so being offered entrance into LIHL. LIHL players could also play on it similar to how we currently do pub noxbuild, except it would have !sign and !players functions like normal LIHL bots.

b. All new vouches being required to obs 7 games before being vouched.

c. New vouches starting at 800 elo, then receiving a +200 bonus when their trial ends.

Due to every new LIHL vouch ever wrecking their teams ELO balance at 1k, this seems like something that needs to be implemented within a short time frame.

[pewpew lasergun]

agree for the 800 ^^
maybe not that low though lol

[eldryan]

agree for the 800 ^^
maybe not that low though lol

if they succeeded in getting vouched, they would receive a boost to their elo pretty shortly. 200 would be a maximum boost ofc, with a hard-cap of 1000 being the boost impact. the main issue with that proposition is the setup involved would obviously involve uakf.b and not just LIHLers.

[eldryan]

agree for the 800 ^^
maybe not that low though lol

if they succeeded in getting vouched, they would receive a boost to their elo pretty shortly. 200 would be a maximum boost ofc, with a hard-cap of 1000 being the boost elo. the main issue with that proposition is the setup involved would obviously involve uakf.b and not just LIHLers.

[Krumme]

Personally I agree with you regarding new vouchers ruining the ELO balance in many of their first games - having new vouchers starting at 800 elo is an option - handing them 200 elo when they get their final vouch is not a good idea as we currently don't have an effective trial period which we mods don't use fully anymore (we can take this conversation regarding trial vouch or not in another thread)

I don't think "a" would work as it is not all the best players that are mannered enough to play in LIHL or wants to play in lihl - and only offering the best a spot would kill the recruiting as I doubt a new bot would be succesfull but also a legit idea

[Diablo_]

I agree that new players are disturbing the ELO balance a bit, however imo this really is no big deal because ...

1) ELO fluctuates a lot in LIHL due to the nature of this game (luck, rng etc), so also older players will sometimes be 100 ELO above their "real" ELO and sometimes 100 below, or even more. That's not much different than the off starting ELO of new players.
2) The balance isn't heavily disturbed. If a new player has 1000 ELO but should have 800 for example, the ELO balance will just slightly be off, like 15/15 instead of 17/13 or maybe 18/12, no big deal imo
3) It only lasts a few games and probably balances out in the long term (ie, every player will have new guys on their team as often as on the enemy team, in the long run)

To sum it up, it's really no big problem and I don't feel a need to change anything, but if someone comes up with a good idea I won't be against it obviously. Now to your suggestions tho.

a)
Simply not enough players, the few players who are interested in LIHL at the same time will never be able to start a game (and to get games regularly started by filling it with LIHL players it will "kill" LIHL as then not enough players are left to play LIHL games)

b)
Krumme suggested something like that prior to vouch players, but I don't think this pays off. It will be another burden for interested players and might hold them back from applying and players will learn much faster by playing instead of observing, so what they learn by observing 7 games they will also learn by playing 1-2 games what really isn't a big deal.

c)
As you already said, this would require uakf.b to change things, which might never happen even if we all would want it
Coupled with my opinion that new players don't really have a noticeable impact on the ELO balance, I don't think it is even worth the effort asking him.
Besides that, the trial period would not be possible to use for this, as it currently merely is an empty phrase and some players have like 0-5 games only during that time etc. I guess number of games would be better suited, like starting at 800 ELO and after 10-20 games you get 200.
However, 800 ELO might even be too low (I would say only 50% of the new players drop to 800 ELO), but if we put it to for example 900 ELO the impact would indeed be close to zero.

[eldryan]

@diablo_ For c. I think for unvouched players playing their first LIHL games, 800 is an accurate estimation. Also, @krumme I'm not recommending they get a flat boost of 200 ELO - the boost would be 100 elo boost if they are above 900, and 50 if they are at 1000, and none at 1100. The maximum they would be boosted is 1100.

For b. I have done this before, and it has consistently paid off. Clearfluids improved drastically, and I'll bet BRRJ has as well.

I just lost 70 ELO yesterday while playing with a new vouch, then took 50 back - can assure you my ELO wasn't inflated, and it was still a huge battle to win games against braveheart/gog with normal 1000s and a new vouch on my team. 1000 is definitely a huge setback, since most trials aren't prepared to be vouched when starting their trial.

Trial isn't an empty phrase - although the only place it shows is the lack of their application moving to "accepted" yet, they still are not a vouched member.

[Krumme]

Even though I didn't want this subject to be about the critiria we set for vouched players it seems that you have turned it into that anyways so regarding the players we vouch I tend to agree with you that the bar we set for new vouches could be higher but we (the mods) agreed that activity and possibly future good players are better than only letting very few to none new applicants join LIHL as we know they aren't LIHL players when they join but hope they will improve to be so within the first 10 games

The trial phrase is indeed an empty phrase as very few to none get unvouched as they all seem to improve or go inactive

Regarding the reboost I think the way you put it could be a good way to balance the ELO out but never the less it will have a small impact as the difference is very small

And again I agree with obs'ing games as this gave me a huge insight in the game and how other players play instead of just playing and "doing my own thing" but I don't think we can force players to obs that big amount of games as 2-3 games should be enough to give them a general idea of how things work in LIHL

[MichaelSong]

As I am new voucher of LIHL, I definitely agree with this post.
experienced about 10 games at the first day, and which I found out was LIHL is somewhat very different from public games.
Also, I feel my bad performance among those highly-skilled players and indeed need time to adapt these leagues. Actually, seeing replay would be most preferred way to improve their skills in LIHL, but it isn't really fun for watching replay all day long.
Furthermore, the who watch the replay can't really recognize exactly that in which purpose he went income or value , why he built that specific tower at that place.
I surely want to enhance my skills but there is not specific guideline for LIHL.
I know this ltd needs to think a lot for winning, and this is very fun part of this game. I think LIHL is very high-skilled league for sure, and playing LIHL gives me best challenge these days. ( I'm really enjoing this challenge tho )
However, what I want to suggest about LIHL moderators are there are LIHL is very highly skilled league, so need some help for newbies like me.
Anyway, I totally agree with Eld's opinion. compared to pub, it is very hard to win like 4~5 times in a row and 1200 elo in LIHL has VERY HUGE different meaning from pub. If we see top players are nearly about 1200~1250 in LIHL, I don't think giving 1000 elo to new vouched players like me doesn't deserve that elo.
I don't mind starting at 800 elo. But, I need more practice and experience to get adapted to LIHL league for sure.
Thx for reading this long post.
See ya

[eldryan]

Even though I didn't want this subject to be about the critiria we set for vouched players it seems that you have turned it into that anyways so regarding the players we vouch I tend to agree with you that the bar we set for new vouches could be higher but we (the mods) agreed that activity and possibly future good players are better than only letting very few to none new applicants join LIHL as we know they aren't LIHL players when they join but hope they will improve to be so within the first 10 games

The trial phrase is indeed an empty phrase as very few to none get unvouched as they all seem to improve or go inactive

Regarding the reboost I think the way you put it could be a good way to balance the ELO out but never the less it will have a small impact as the difference is very small

And again I agree with obs'ing games as this gave me a huge insight in the game and how other players play instead of just playing and "doing my own thing" but I don't think we can force players to obs that big amount of games as 2-3 games should be enough to give them a general idea of how things work in LIHL

it's not a problem with the criteria. almost no1 can be equal to LIHL players upon their first games after vouch...

[Krayyzie]

This idea overall has alot of weird situations that can be created
1: Making new vouches start at a lower elo means they get Punished(if they dont get a boost later), which is unfair because they deserve and equal chance to get up the rank, they dont deserve to be punished because they´re new
2: If they start out well, and get a boost of elo when they get fully vouched, they´ve actually had a handicap to give them a quick jump to the top ( for example a player starts with 800 elo, goes to 950 and gets vouched --> up to 1150) which is also unfair, once agan, because they deserve the same threatment as rest of players
3: How about if its an old lihl player being Revouched or comes back from inactivity, would the same concept go there? Since overall the player has been playin alot of pub games and no lihl games which usually means they need a few games to re adept
4: What makes a new player different compared to a new season? where everyone starts at 1000 elo, sometimes u get a team u prefer, sometimes u dont, deal with it. Or maybe we should stay the same elo when a new season begins as we ended the last one ( just announce a winner for that season but keep playing on the same elos), since reset "destroys the auto-balance mechanic's function"
5: New vouches are Very random when it comes to skill, some end up 650 elo after 60 games, others go 1150, starting lower will just be randomly good or bad, if u get a player who´s good enough to be 1100 after 2-3 games, you would benefit from having him in team due to his lower ELO start, which would also remove the auto-balance mechanic's function

IMO there will be alot of cases where a change like this will be pretty bad, even tho i see the good parts(Im sure there are cases where it´d work perfect) but there´s to many random factors to make it work well
However, I dont think its possible get it to work anyways, since Lihl been trying to get the acceptance to do dc penalties and stuff(remove elo after rulebreaks and such) and got denied to do so(I think?), the whole system ent is using they use is every player got 1000 elo from start, so when there´s 500 players there is 500000 elo split beetween those, and the whole elo win/loose calculation is based on 1000 elo, I doubt they´d agree to let lihl do this



Also a note to last post, bullshit, there is several new vouches during the last 2 seasons I would prefer in my team compared to a few players in lihl( Right off when they joined lihl) 1006. Artmas sony- to name a few... Alot of players who join arent that lowly skilled, they actually know more about how to use towers than lihl players who basically doesnt play with 75% of towers in game. If you Discuss with ur newly vouched allies and plan the game with them, they usually do alot better than for example:
Be quiet for the first 3 levels, when they build something level 4 you dont like you scream " why the fuck u build that, stop! income!! go 7/2", 4 levels later they get yelled at because they dont know how to come back from leaking so much(which is a new situation in lihl compared to what they´re used to)

Okay, I was tired as i wrote this , so im sure there´s alot of grammatical fails in the post but as you might realise I do Not believe all new vouches are that bad, the lihl players in many cases make them bad by pushing them to do things th vouey´re not use to, and then they loose because the newches are in situations they have no idea how to handle... Plan and discuss, plan and discuss, instead of "do that , do this, followed by why the heck did u fail?"

Also noticed very few smileys to be written by me =)

[eldryan]

@krayzie I don't think you played with these players when they were first vouched. sony- was very bad and dropped immediately but improved later. artmas wasn't great, and 1005. was already an LIHL player who is revouched (1006 has no period). so these examples aren't very good...

however, the boost doesn't help them because it is scaled (please read the whole post), nor does it hurt them to place them at 800 because of the boost (which is scaled). it's also not unfair because they get a boost (which is scaled) to their performance. felt the need to emphasize that since you kind of omitted it completely.

although you say it's "random" skill levels, they are all "randomly" worse then players who have been LIHL vouched for a season...

the pub comparison is based off the skill level of everyone and isn't autobalanced, but yea when noobs join at 1k it should throw up red flags to most players, that they are either smurfs or very bad.

[Krayyzie]

tbh im not sure about sony,just thought i remembered that?
artmas was, at the start of his trial, already better at ltd than Alot of lihl players, 1006 played 15 games and its the start of their precence in lihl you´re discusssing? so its a good example?

As you see in my post, I did have a point 3: "3: How about if its an old lihl player being Revouched or comes back from inactivity, would the same concept go there? Since overall the player has been playin alot of pub games and no lihl games which usually means they need a few games to re adept"
So I figured i´d even name him

Nope random skill level means random skill level, some players are worse,some are better, just as it is now in lihl, check purple atm wmhos 6/1 from start as an extreme example, would be fair to start out @ 800 there...

[eldryan]

purple is streetweed, and he didn't start great. I also thought he was new vouch, and was confused for a bit.

this isn't for revouches, it's for those in trial vouch ofc. (will say for those not reading chat lol)

[supersexyy]

There is a system that many games use some sort of variation of, which can help alleviate this problem, it is somewhat along the lines of what eldryan suggests.

Basically new players start at an elo level say 800, but they have a pool of 200 elo. Each time they win a game that individual receives double elo (taken from the pool) until the pool is zero.

This is similar to eldryans suggestion but is more streamlined.