Battleships Drama/Suggestions Explanation

[drewisfat]

Hi, I am drewisfat@east

Reading the forums I've seen a disproportionate amount of drama over battleships for how popular the game is. My post is to try to give some the admin/staff here more information about the causes and potential solutions.

In a nut shell, several members that care a great deal about their ELO have banded together to stack games with 3-5 of them on the same team. While they may not be the best players the game has to offer, stacking the game in such a way leads to almost guaranteed success. What's worse, with transparent stats on all members joining the game, they leave any time 2-3 decent players join the opposite team. The main people involved here are shamans (and some grunts) of BsC, most of whom have posted here before: PONM, enfo.kwaak, Trivium.Crusade, Hooded_Beauty.

Racking up ELO and bragging about it may cause resentment among some, especially the more skilled players, who then try to do something about it. These people then log on AKAs attempting to sneak into their games to give them a real challenge. These are the much maligned trolls they have referred to previously on here. The trolls may resort to less than scrupulous methods to try to win their games, or simply try to game ruin by stealing items / feeding on the stacked team.
To make matters worse, there was a lot of bad blood here before. Months ago when inhouse pro-only games were more popular, some of the previously mentioned BsC crew were known to leave inhouses / whine about BD, etc., and as a result several players tried banning them from ih games.

There are no innocent parties here. PONM himself recently tried some second degree trolling by jumping on the other team and feeding to make them lose and make his friends win. From one of PONM's posts you can see this, and confirmation of the overall issued I've presented:

"me and my friends are very active shippers, the only problem with that is we have 2 guys who join our games to steal hulls and feed when possible to lower our chances of wining
specially that our clan is the top leaders of battleships, they constantly join games with different aka s to fed ruin and spoil our games.
thanks to ent we can now at least see the country and ping of who ever joins the game, so in that particular game i knew that they were going to aka my friend that's why i did what i did"


This situation is very bad for the current state of battleships pro games ENT is hosting. There is basically a war between the stackers and the trolls, each attempting to ruin the others day, and now trying to get each other banned on the forums. As a result PONM and Thunderblue (both very active players) are currently banned for 20 days, I believe. Others may have been banned for shorter periods of time in the past, and may continue to be in the future.

The worst part though is the huge negative effect on activity this has on everyone else who enjoys the game. People aware of the situation don't want to play games where the teams are heavily stacked by BsC members. BsC members don't want to play games verse AKAs. Also the large amount of new asian players (supposedly coming from garena?) can't be having a fun time at all. Every game they play is horribly stacked against them. They lose incentive to play anymore. So instead of improving they quit, and are replaced by more brand new players every game, and the problem comes no closer to resolving itself.

There's no easy solution, as the problem stems from the inflationary ELO system combined with the ability to choose your own teams. I assume you use the same or similar system in most of the custom games entbots currently host. Personally I think the ELO system should be removed, but I suspect you won't be very receptive to that idea.

Short of that, I feel very strongly that the best solution is to shuffle the players at the start of every game. This would remove the problem of friends stacking teams, and hamper the ability and motivation of people to go on akas trying to troll them. Games won't necessarily be even all the time, but they would be much more balanced than they currently are, and games wouldn't be systematically slanted towards the same devoted players all the time. Shuffled teams would mean noobs would be more likely to cancel each other out, instead of hopelessly losing every game they played and quitting before they improved.

**Edit: Added a poll as recommended. I'd like to point out though, that I don't think a poll will be too revealing. While I believe that the vast majority of players would benefit and support such as an idea, there is only a small number of them who participate on the forums. This activity would also likely be skewed towards the high ELO / stacking crowd, as they are obviously the ones who have the most interest in and knowledge about the ENT forums.

[supersexyy]

Best solution is to report feeding and we'll ban accordingly. Regarding people making akas there's nothing that really can be done.

The real suggestion I got out of that huge post is auto balancing games. Maybe you should add a poll to this thread to feel what people think.

[tom_b]

Best solution is to report feeding and we'll ban accordingly. Regarding people making akas there's nothing that really can be done.

The real suggestion I got out of that huge post is auto balancing games. Maybe you should add a poll to this thread to feel what people think.

If you read his post, you'd see that the issue is not the fact that people are resorting to AKA accounts as a means to challenge stacked teams. Nor is it that beginners are feeding, as the learning curve can be quite steep and rewards experienced players that understand game mechanics disproportionately.

The issue is that the current state of hosted games encourages people to stack teams for ELO gain, whilst simultaneously making the game unenjoyable for beginners. This acts as a disincentive for new players to learn the game and results in an ever shrinking community of players whom now, more than ever, resort to stacking games as to avoid noobs/gain elo.

I would advocate 3 possible solutions to what many feel is the current problem;
1- Introduce an autobalance function to the bot. The bot will ascertain a way to best balance each teams ELO average in order to ensure a fair game. This has the added bonus of gradually making ELO more representative of skill, as it should, rather than merely the amount of games played with friends.

2- Add an !SP function to the bot. Make the bot shuffle teams at last second so people can't leave otherwise games will never start. This is simple, and random, though I prefer option 1

3- Remove ELO from the bot. I doubt this will be a popular option given how long many people (myself included) have worked on obtaining said ranking. However ELO in its current state and form on the bot is in no way representative of skill, and for the aforementioned reasons, might be the best solution.

A poll is not the most fair solution as the people active on the forums are not representative of the majority of battleships players as a whole. You will find more "pro" players here who have no incentive to change the current system as it currently benefits them. Your average beginner that plays 1 game and goes 3-30 and never plays the game again is not going to post.

[GentleGiant]

The bot records ELO, but does not shuffle or autobalance teams. This creates a perverse incentive for players to stack teams with other players that also have high ELO. This leads to ELO inflation. Since high ELO players are good players, good players will play on one team. This leaves no room for less-than-good players and beginners since they will be overwhelmed game after game without a fair fight. The combination of the ELO system and lack of autobalance is leading to less and less competitive games and to fewer and fewer games.

[nabo.]

This old debate......

The battleship rules have just recently been implemented.

Not many people use the forum and not many r aware of ENT rules, esp. battleship rules. Give it some time till people become aware of our rules and realize that it is a regulated game.

As for game ruiners, you report and we shall ban them accordingly. Ban cases will be dealt case by case.

As for stackers, it is normal and peeps r free to do so: not game ruining. Playing with friends or moving does not matter. We r doing the best on wc3 with wat we got. U cant compare to advanced match making systems from other newer games. If you guys feel the need for an autobalance battleship game for a possible more balanced game, I am sure uakf.b can add one.

[supersexyy]

Best solution is to report feeding and we'll ban accordingly. Regarding people making akas there's nothing that really can be done.

The real suggestion I got out of that huge post is auto balancing games. Maybe you should add a poll to this thread to feel what people think.

If you read his post, you'd see that the issue is not the fact that people are resorting to AKA accounts as a means to challenge stacked teams.

BsC members don't want to play games verse AKAs.

I read his post and that appears to be a direct contradiction?

The only way to remove stacking is to shuffle players.

There are other possible solutions to making elo more accurate. Removing AKAs/stat reset in some form can achieve this as higher elo team gets less elo for the win. Furthermore weak players will go to a low elo which means even less elo for stronger teams per win. However I don't think removing akas will happen unless a more in depth solution can be constructed.

Removing ELO always seems like an obvious way to go about things, but in practice it is often unpopular.

[edit] I see a poll has been made. I suggest you guys encourage more bships players to vote in the poll. The more votes the more chance that changes will be made.

[Stealer]

I still don't see how shuffling players is going to help new people learn the game.
If they were going to teach noobs when 2-3 of them were on their team why try when it's 1-2?

I do not think its a good idea to make many changes at once, probably shouldn't implement shuffling close to when rules changed.

[tom_b]

The battleship rules have just recently been implemented.

Not many people use the forum and not many r aware of ENT rules, esp. battleship rules. Give it some time till people become aware of our rules and realize that it is a regulated game.

As drewisfat and I have stated, "most people" (who are typically new) have little incentive to use or participate in these forums and on this topic if their only experiences playing this game result in getting steamrolled by a bunch of friends who are familiar with the game. There is a serious flaw in using a democratic method to determine the outcome of this suggestion when those active in the vote are in no way representative of the general player base.

I still don't see how shuffling players is going to help new people learn the game.
If they were going to teach noobs when 2-3 of them were on their team why try when it's 1-2?

I do not think its a good idea to make many changes at once, probably shouldn't implement shuffling close to when rules changed.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but are you perhaps trying to suggest that it makes no difference in regards to learning when you have 2-3 noobs on a team as opposed to 3-5? What? OFC playing alongside better players helps you improve, are you going to ask advice from someone who is wholly inexperienced with the game and expect a helpful answer?

These "rules" haven't changed either. I may disagree with several, sure. But no real changes have been made, and if anything these rules are just an overdue standardisation of bannable offences.

[Stealer]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but are you perhaps trying to suggest that it makes no difference in regards to learning when you have 2-3 noobs on a team as opposed to 3-5? What? OFC playing alongside better players helps you improve, are you going to ask advice from someone who is wholly inexperienced with the game and expect a helpful answer?

Cause having a bunch of pros on your team is such a good learning environment.
https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=3660088 (see tom_b & alien)

You can change the range of noobs/team all you want but it doesn't change the lack of teaching.

---

2nd is there any game that has an auto-balance / shuffle without having a bot that hosts non-shuffled?

[tom_b]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say, but are you perhaps trying to suggest that it makes no difference in regards to learning when you have 2-3 noobs on a team as opposed to 3-5? What? OFC playing alongside better players helps you improve, are you going to ask advice from someone who is wholly inexperienced with the game and expect a helpful answer?

Cause having a bunch of pros on your team is such a good learning environment.
https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=3660088 (see tom_b & alien)

You can change the range of noobs/team all you want but it doesn't change the lack of teaching.

---

2nd is there any game that has an auto-balance / shuffle without having a bot that hosts non-shuffled?

I'm sure you posted that replay in the hope that an admin would read the chat transcript without watching the actual replay and assume I was contradicting myself? This is kind of amusing, particularly given the fact that you've resorted to ad hominem attacks in some pathetically desperate attempt to prove your "point" is legitimate. see http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 597849.w3g as to how that game is proof of nothing.

I would link other replays, but it seems ent doesnt record games past the first page of stats for players. Maybe I should bookmark them as you do and save them for later. Maybe you should also post on your main account here instead of shirking behind AKA's as you accuse me of doing. Y'know, so we aren't being hypocritical or anything.

[uakf.b]

We'll run a trial run for battleships autobalancing (ENT19). I don't see removing ELO as a solution since it wouldn't prevent players from checking # games, and recognizing other players by name; anonymizing player names could work, although it wouldn't stop pregame stacking, but it would allow friends to play with each other.

[Stealer]

Maybe you should also post on your main account here

You're stupid.

instead of shirking behind AKA's as you accuse me of doing.

It's quite clear your reading comprehension is somewhat limited

I'm sure you posted that replay in the hope that an admin would read the chat transcript without watching the actual replay and assume I was contradicting myself?

?
It was posted to show that people (you in specific) just flame noobs and so auto-balance or shuffle wouldn't matter for the purpose of teaching noobs.

but w.e apparently uakf already set-up auto-balance.

[king5hit]

i think you should reset the entire elo system and initiate the shuffle players idea. that'll give a good challenge for all pros and beginners to fight for the top ranking spots for a few months.. so the current pros dont just keep the high elo and aka like everybody is doing these days

[yeo]

i think you should reset the entire elo system and initiate the shuffle players idea. that'll give a good challenge for all pros and beginners to fight for the top ranking spots for a few months.. so the current pros dont just keep the high elo and aka like everybody is doing these days

I actually laugh so hard after seeing all the comments till this last one. I kinda support what "king5hit" says in someway.

Moreover, I advise admins that they keep switching "elo balancing system" and "normal game system" for every week. After a month, let's see how players react about this difference. We can do "vote" later, or admins can gather comments from different players before/during/after the game. If there are more players strongly like one side. We may stick that side all the time.

Other than that, there are so many unfair games that people come across. I will suggest that this game should increase the popularity of "forum use".

[tom_b]

You're stupid.

I did invite you to offer your opinion in a valid manner, thank you for showing me that trying to do so would be ultimately fruitless with the likes of you here skewing voting mechanisms. And again, who are you?

It was posted to show that people (you in specific) just flame noobs and so auto-balance or shuffle wouldn't matter for the purpose of teaching noobs.

but w.e apparently uakf already set-up auto-balance.

And again, thank you for showing everyone that your indignation and rage are directed towards me, as opposed to the general battleships community that you have thus far so valiantly defended. I once again invite you to defend the link you have drawn between how "flaming noobs" and shuffling players wouldn't benefit the community as a whole.

I hope you find some solace in the fact that your ELO ranking won't change until you next play. I look forward to playing and beating you

Thank you UAKF.B for implementing this change, I'll be sure to advise players to post on the forum about how they feel regarding the newly implemented !SP function in the coming week