[DOTA] DOTA Papa.Bear

[Tonyslarks]

Your Warcraft III username: Tonyslarks
Violator's Warcraft III username: Papa.Bear
Game name or map name: DOTA
Stats page link:
Rule player violated: Game Ruining / Abusive Glitch
Time of incidents (Note in-game timer or replay timer): All Game
Any further thoughts: Papa.Bear's strategy every game is to pick Sylla and essentially jungle all game. If you check each of his replays you will see this. He builds up the bear with Radiance and Dagon and farms in the jungle moving his bear around the lanes KS'ing. I will grant that he is participating in team fights to some extent via his bear but this type of behavior is, in my view, game ruining in that its sole purpose is to achieve a K/D record for PB and he intentionally risks nothing nor adds nothing to fights unless the team is winning without him, and in those cases all he is doing is KS'ing his team.

I also believe this is a terrible gaming experience for the apposing team and think that it is a misuse of the hero, Sylla's bear is intentionally muted to keep this from occurring and ultimately this is just utilizing a glitch. I'm sure game design never intended for this play style. Granted, a form of this type of play style has been around for a while, but this is egregious in that it is full on not participating in any fights, just KS'ing and griefing the opposing team.

In any case, I believe this play style has no place in a collaborative game of DOTA and that is my opinion. I grant that the admins here may not share it but at least review his games to consider it for yourself.

[Rashinator]

he is
1. not breaking any rules
2. not breaking any rules
and
3. not breaking any rules

usage of radiance bear to splitpush lanes is a well developed method in the professional scenes, weird ban request imo. same is for example with pl or naga illusions, they not allowed in your dota games either?

plus ksing with a bear is pretty hard, the radiance does 60 damage only and the bear has no mana to use dagon.

[Tonyslarks]

So you didn't watch the replay, which is your prerogative. I would recommend you do before you post on a ban request. When someone goes out of their way to equip bear with Soul Booster for their Dagon I personally think it has gone too far.

Both examples you have given are short duration timers, split pushing is only possible for a maximum of a few seconds. The issue is not the use of the bear as a tank and if you will watch the replay you'll see that.

I have no issue with play styles that utilize radiance so long as it includes other involvement. Do you think it would be griefing if Siren sat at fountain and just pushed out clones with radiance on them and that was her contribution? How about if she could equip her clones with dagon and they could not attack, and they had no timer to run out?

This play style is an abuse in my opinion and both teams are the victims of it.

[Rashinator]

you are right about watching the replay. just saying what it sounds like. i also looked at his previous games and saw variations in items, although you do not see the bears items. When i play syllabear i get radiance on bear and splitpush lanes with the bear 24/7. It is hardly an abuse of any kind of glitch, it has been allowed through all the patches that have existed, for a reason. Getting energy boosters on bear is also widely known, to use some items that require mana.
Although i definately agree that doing it constantly, buying dagon+point booster and ksing, is extremely annoying and prob sucks to be on his team. Just doesnt sound like he is breaking any rules, except being a dick, which you personally can deal with by avoiding him in the future.

[child]

I mean... it's hard to argue with numbers here...

If he was losing the vast majority of his games then I'd be more inclined to consider it abuse, but hes winning over half of his games against unfavorable odds and has a very high kdr. Now obviously the way he plays is damn annoying to his team, but the way ent rules are structured trolling - by itself - is not bannable

As for the concerns towards ruining the enemy team's experience, I don't see how that's very much an issue. I mean, there are tons of different scenarios in dota when "exploited" can ruin the opposite team's experience (wisp ursa on vent, arranged early push team - chen, lesh, enchant, seer, furi , arc warden - everything about the hero)

[DotaPlayer]

I have definitely seen play styles like this. I cannot remember if it was the same player. But i would be inclined to definitely say that this is tantamount to game ruining under ENT game rules because it breaks the spirit and mood of the game and causes collateral damage on both sides which can be detrimental. Although this should probably not warrant a long ban, it should be worthy of a ban of a few hours or a couple of days.

[Tonyslarks]

Child I agree and disagree. I can certainly avoid playing games with him and I have no problem doing that. My sense is that the nature of this play style is consistent with trolling and even though he has had the benefit of winning games and his K/D is good (by virtue of him never leaving the jungle), I think the ends do not justify the means.

People understand good timing's, organized team play or hero compositions that are just stupidly OP, but at least in all of those cases you have a chance of killing your opponent, however slim. Papa is using a game dynamic that protects him from any chance of dieing. Here are the two ways his games go:

He plays vs a competent team: His team gets stomped 5 vs 4 and he sits at fountain and doesn't die, he doesn't participate in the team fights. (Loss)
He plays vs a pub team who don't play well together: His team stomps them and his participation is KS'ing and ultimately griefing both teams. (Win)

In any case, I've stated my point and rationalizations and you are right that the rules do not expressly indicate what he is doing is wrong.

For everyone's sake this play style should not become popular, in a team game it is really hanging your own team out to dry and from the opposing side there is really nothing more annoying than facing an opponent you have no chance of killing, as evidenced by the people quitting well before the game is done in each of PB's wins. People are being leave banned for this individuals trolling.

[child]

@tonyslarks I see what you're saying. So from your experience when his team is stomping bad pubs he just sits in jungle and farms. But, at least i think this is what ur implying, if the game is not going his teams way or is evenly balanced (hence a chance he could get ganked or something) he plays it safe for himself and sits in the fountain thus being more of a troll and actually partially ruining the game for his team by not maximizing his farm potential?

If u show me a replay where u believe the game was close to evenly balanced and he went to sit fountain instead of continuing in a rational attempt to farm (by this I mean sometimes with his strategy sitting fountain is probably the best thing to do if the game is one sided and the opposition is vastly superior) I will definitely ban him.

Overall I think you hit on a good point in general, that our dota rules - game ruining standards in general - should include acts of trolling that might not be as clearly recognizable as intentional feed/item destruction/refusal to defend, but are nevertheless acts of ruining that should be punishable. If you have further thoughts on this please post in suggestions, I'd definitely be happy to share my views as well.

Im processing this for now, but if u do have a replay in which you believe his sitting fountain instead of farming woods greatly contributed to his team's loss lmk.