Builder Leaving In game...

[Burn]

Yeah, !is should be re-implemented into lobby properly, it'd help minimize the problem for leaver builders atm. The reason it was removed was because the ELO system isn't "perfect", even though it is working. Sure, it isn't balanced, but it isn't hard to balance it. uakfb just stopped balancing it because there were things he couldn't do that he wanted to do without the dev's support on the version.

Solutions for fixing builder leavers:

1) Re-enable ELO stats to lobby ( !is ), then put work into balancing the current ELO system using the limited resources. (Recommended)
2) Disable ELO entirely and wait for a better map that supports ELO calculation. (Not recommended)
3) Start banning leaver builders (Not recommended)
4) Get good.

-Burn

[Neco]

Disable ELO entirely and wait for a better map that supports ELO calculation.

People don't seem to understand this, so I'll say it again.

The map cannot have control over ELO calculations. The only thing the map can do is give metadata, such as kills and deaths and winners and losers. That's it. It currently does that (using the uxIslandDefense3), so all the required information is there. Sure, I can provide more information in the next map but the necessary data required to make separate titan/defender ELO etc is already there.

Balancing can be computed through theorizing, it isn't necessary to create "test maps" since the data collected is simple wins and losses. This is simple math that doesn't even need a map to come up with.

Also: they've had my support for MMD information, I've asked several times. They honestly just don't seem that interested.

[Burn]

uakfb was complaining about something about the map screwing with ELO, you'd have to talk to him personally about it.

-Burn

[Stealer]

I'm actually going to side with art)y on this @neco.

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=3965986

25:25 <Reign-AngelPain> 0x60: [Chat command] -titan
25:26 0x6B: SyncStoredInteger (MMD.Dat, val:60, FlagP 3 loser, 1608375289)

Why does purple deserve the loss?

25:26 0x6B: SyncStoredInteger (MMD.Dat, val:88, FlagP 10 winner, -991473832)
And titan deserve the win?

[Neco]

I'm actually going to side with art)y on this @neco.

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=3965986

25:25 <Reign-AngelPain> 0x60: [Chat command] -titan
25:26 0x6B: SyncStoredInteger (MMD.Dat, val:60, FlagP 3 loser, 1608375289)

Why does purple deserve the loss?

25:26 0x6B: SyncStoredInteger (MMD.Dat, val:88, FlagP 10 winner, -991473832)
And titan deserve the win?

I did not implement the current version of MMD in uxIslandDefense3.w3x. It's poorly done at best, which is why I'm trying to encourage the discussion of it now so it will actually be useful later on.

In the new version I'm working on, Purple would have the win as he would be the titan when the game concluded (-titan command is disabled after the game finishes so no problems there). The titan would lose since he left the game, and all leaving players would be flagged as losers.

[Lynx]

9 builders leave in the first 2 minutes. Should this be allowed by ENT?

[aRt)Y]

You guys shouldn't forget that ENT (the mods) does not ban for leaving. The system takes care of that (autobanx). So the question is more like whether ENT should ban for leaving in general or not - this will also affect those of you who yolo-suicide and then are obs after 2 minutes and leave.

[Lynx]

Have you forgotten that Autobanx is disabled for Island defense? I don't recommend enabling it, I recommend people manually banning.

[aRt)Y]

Have you forgotten that Autobanx is disabled for Island defense? I don't recommend enabling it, I recommend people manually banning.

That's the point lord lynx.. ENT doesn't and wont ban manually for leaving. That's what we've the system for which is disabled for ID, ergo my post above.

So banning leavers will also mean banning for leaving in general and not in selected case reported by users.

[Lynx]

ENT doesn't and wont ban manually for leaving.

They do, leaving Titans get manually banned. So why not just edit/add to this rule? Leaver titan in the first 10 minutes of game (time must be noted from when titan spawns (GP timer starts)).. adding/editing in Builders leaving within the first ten minutes of the game will be banned..

So banning leavers will also mean banning for leaving in general and not in selected case reported by users.

Just to be clear what do you mean by this?

[aRt)Y]

The reason banning titans is possible is because it is by far more game breaking (also taking into account the -titan bugs, etc.). Plus, the number of reports regarding titan leaving is also far lower than possible reports for builders leaving.

Leaving in general means that it doesn't matter whether you leave before 10 minutes or after or at any other given time of the game. The system will calculate the ban duration based on multiple factors.

The only advantage of that would be: We dont need titan brqs because the autobanx will handle it.

[Lynx]

Plus, the number of reports regarding titan leaving is also far lower than possible reports for builders leaving.

Whip the id mods so they aren't that lazy, problem solved.

[aRt)Y]

Off topic:

Plus, the number of reports regarding titan leaving is also far lower than possible reports for builders leaving.

Whip the id mods so they aren't that lazy, problem solved.

There're no ID mods. We've got mods who pay special attention to ID due to their knowledge and experience. Considering we've 2 pages of unprocessed ban requests, their workforce can be used somewhere else.

[Burn]

Titan autoban was a disaster for BGN, I'd support it if we got it right the first time.

Titan autoban criteria:

1) Titans before 2 mins. in-game timer will be banned.
2) Titans could leave after 3 builders goes observer (by not picking) or leaves.
3) Titans can leave if game is !votestarted and titan did not vote.
4) Titan leavers will be auto-banned for 1/2/3/4/5 days for repeat offenses.

Possible things to watch out for:

1) Builders leaving in loading time affecting bot recording leavers
2) Make sure it is 2 mins. in-game timer.
3) Make sure it is 3 builder leavers and not 3 minion or minion-to-observer leavers.

These are the just things I can think of off the top of my mind without any testing at all. Now, I'm not a coder, but:

1) Are you sure you want someone to code this?
2) Does ID even provide sufficient information from the map for something like this?
3) Is it really worth the time? I don't see many titan leavers these days anyway, it isn't really a problem.

-Burn

[Neco]

Bringing this up again.

Due to some changes in 4.0.0, all player win/lose information should be correct and usable to make ELO viable.

Fixed MMD

• Three new MMD definitions:
  
  • "start_class", the class that the player started as. If you -titan at the beginning of the game (titan cannot be found), your start class will be CLASS_TITAN.
  • "end_class", the class that you ended the game as.
    
    • CLASS_NONE = 0
    • CLASS_MINION = 1
    • CLASS_TITAN = 2
    • CLASS_DEFENDER = 3
    • CLASS_OBSERVER = 4
  • "end_state", the game state that you left the game during.
    
    • STATE_IDLE = 0 When the map is initialized
    • STATE_STARTING = 1 When game modes / player races are being chosen
    • STATE_STARTED = 2 Once defenders (and Titan) have spawned
    • STATE_PAUSED = 3 (The actual game state will be shown in "end_state", so you'll never see STATE_PAUSED)
    • STATE_FINISHED = 4 On gameover
• Players that leave before the game starts will now be flagged with MMD_FLAG_LEAVER.
• Players that leave during the game will be flagged with MMD_FLAG_LOSER.
• Players that leave after the game has ended, will be flagged correctly.
• Players that stay right until being kicked from the game will be flagged correctly before being removed.

This is enough information, right @uakf.b ? All that should be left now is the ELO factors for each scenario.