[4.0.0] Island Defense: Tides of Redemption

[Neco]

Neco i like the nether rock idea but do you plan to change the golding animation as well?

.0075 has it changed back to the normal ol' mound. The Nether Shard was a ToR concept which I was testing out, I thought it looked pretty cool with the animations!

[pandaren.]

no i liked it also but it should be purple or maybe green shards coming out idk. Atm it was still yellow coins coming out.

[Lynx]

Titan should have veto-rights for -froff -exp -gc votes.

[Neco]

Titan should have veto-rights for -froff -exp -gc votes.

Hmm, so the titan has to vote yes too?

I like that, but it may be annoying trying to get new players to type it. Any other opinions for this?

[Lynx]

Not necessarily has to vote yes, for example -noexp will work as well. Then new players don't have to type anything.

[Neco]

Not necessarily has to vote yes, for example -noexp will work as well. Then new players don't have to type anything.

Wouldn't the new player have to type "-noexp"?

[Lynx]

Wouldn't the new player have to type "-noexp"?

Why would a new player dismiss an offer to make a hard game easier?

[TooNoobForU]

!agree on titan for -exp/-froff/-gc
it would help the person whos titaning to get more of an advantage since a noob or someone whos new to the game wouldnt know the command.

[Neco]

I think the idea Lynx had was to allow the titan to be able to disable the activation of those commands, rather than to make the titan have to accept them specifically.

[Phosphia]

Balance changes are not bugs per say. So can I talk balance changes here? I would like to talk balance changes.

Now, I have not seen any reasoning behind these changes but here are my thoughts behind these changes if they are as intended.
The first immediate and also significant change I noticed was the vendor item changes for builders. I am very concerned with these and will go through my thought process of why that is.

(Vendor; Aerox and rcxquake)

Staff of Teleportation
Then> This item used to cost 6 Gold, have a short sell CD and a long use CD.
Now> Now it has a Lumber cost of 1600, semi long sell CD and still long use CD.

What is Staff of Teleportation? It's an item that guarantees 100% secure escape from the titan if you're out of Cyclone range and if he can't hit you directly, ie behind a wall. It is a very powerful tool and should under no circumstances be sold for Lumber. The difference between Gold and Lumber is that you're guaranteed to gradually gain Lumber, even without running any risk of dying, while Gold is a currency you have to earn by putting yourself at risk.

The key thing here is that, you only have so much Gold. So, this raises the question during game-play -> "What should I spend it on?" This is where balance comes into play. You can choose to save it and get good upgrades for your character or you can invest it into being secure by getting a Staff of Teleportation. It's an active choice you need to deal with.

If this item is sold for Lumber, you eliminate that choice. It becomes a 'given' instead, that you have it. Even if you're a builder tight on lumber, you could just ask one of the many wallers to give you one of their 6.

It is my ideology in Island Defense, that you should stay alive by out-smarting the Titan with skill and strategic positioning that would allow for escape. Buying a Staff of Teleportation with Gold means that you've exposed yourself to a risk and that you've decided to invest into it.

If Staff of Teleportation would be available for Lumber, the ideology above would be ruined as people playing Island Defense would then be able to stock pile an item that guarantees 100% secure escape from the titan, without running any risk getting it. That is not balance.


Wand of the Wind

This item is sold for 1200 Lumber, low selling CD and no use CD. It gives your character a 50% speed bonus for 5 seconds, that could potentially be spammed 6 times in a row.

This item does not guarantee an escape, but it is still a very powerful item indeed and it comes at a very cheap price too. Personally I think this item should either cost a very low amount of Gold (2-4) or not be in the game at all, here's why.

As I have said before, if something is available for Lumber and not Gold, it is hardly a game-play choice you need to make. It's just something you need to have since it is available to you. We have done well so far without this item so I do not see any need for it to be implemented into the game at all, but if we do implement it; it should cost Gold.

If this is implemented without a Gold cost you'll change Island Defense very drastically as you add a very powerful item into the game that people will get without the 'choice-process'. To give you a visual example of how the game will be very different, one out of many; literally everyone would gold with this item and use it to get back in behind the walls when the titan comes. It's gonna change the face of the game a lot (in my opinion in a game breaking way), if the changes go through as they are now.


I have more balance changes I would like to discuss, but I'll leave it to this for now.
As I noted, these two changes are the most immediate and pressing concerns I have so far. I hope you take the time to read my thoughts and thanks for having me.

[Lynx]

Staff of Teleportation
Then> This item used to cost 6 Gold, have a short sell CD and a long use CD.
Now> Now it has a Lumber cost of 1600, semi long sell CD and still long use CD.

ye, wasn't tp staff suppose to cost 12g or something, 1.6k lumber is far too imba considering all the new pathways for the builders

[Neco]

Oh, hi guys.

I kinda fixed the requirement on them costing lumber when I made the shops unusable by the Titan.

So yeah, they should cost gold again. I completely agree. I was just testing ways to make it a true "Builder" shop and not one that the Titan could use. Rest assured, it will be changed in the next alpha version!

Anywho, for balancing I was thinking 15g for TP staffs and 10g for WotW (which is essentially a panic). Both these items are extremely useful in their own right, as they provide a slightly weaker version of the abilities that some builders already have. I think they should be accessible but not extremely easily to obtain as they should be a last resort when your main escape is already on cooldown.

Thank you for your thoughts @Phosphia, I look forward to looking into the other balance issues you have. And yes, this is the correct place to post them! I think it's best since balance is an ongoing discussion whereas bugs are just reports.

[Lynx]

15g for TP staffs and 10g for wotw

imo 14 or 16 for staff and 9 or 11 for wotw to make those with ocd go crazy

[BeeKauzh]

Staff of Teleportation
Then> This item used to cost 6 Gold, have a short sell CD and a long use CD.
Now> Now it has a Lumber cost of 1600, semi long sell CD and still long use CD.

What is Staff of Teleportation? It's an item that guarantees 100% secure escape from the titan if you're out of Cyclone range and if he can't hit you directly, ie behind a wall. It is a very powerful tool and should under no circumstances be sold for Lumber. The difference between Gold and Lumber is that you're guaranteed to gradually gain Lumber, even without running any risk of dying, while Gold is a currency you have to earn by putting yourself at risk.

If this item is sold for Lumber, you eliminate that choice. It becomes a 'given' instead, that you have it. Even if you're a builder tight on lumber, you could just ask one of the many wallers to give you one of their 6.


If Staff of Teleportation would be available for Lumber, the ideology above would be ruined as people playing Island Defense would then be able to stock pile an item that guarantees 100% secure escape from the titan, without running any risk getting it.


Wand of the Wind

This item is sold for 1200 Lumber, low selling CD and no use CD. It gives your character a 50% speed bonus for 5 seconds, that could potentially be spammed 6 times in a row.

Tp Stick
Now cost lumber,not a free item that everyone will buy 6 times. As a waller, you will probably need lumber to research upgades and build walls and 1600 is alot of lumber for a one time use item, you need to choose what to get... 1600 lumber =12g if you -g2l

Most of the time it's not a safe escape as you are in cyclone or hitting range,if you're not, you're probably not in danger.

Wand of the Wind
Basically a weak panic (5 seconds instead of 10 seconds), makes sense for you to be allowed to buy it since most of the other items are weak version of spells.
e.g: tp stick = weak version of tp (longer casting time),scroll of the beast = weak version of war cry (doesn't buff buildings), Tauren has ward, Morphling can upgrade his armor... This item is balanced and deserves to be available to buy.

[Phosphia]

Oh, hi guys.

I kinda fixed the requirement on them costing lumber when I made the shops unusable by the Titan.

So yeah, they should cost gold again. I completely agree. I was just testing ways to make it a true "Builder" shop and not one that the Titan could use. Rest assured, it will be changed in the next alpha version!

Anywho, for balancing I was thinking 15g for TP staffs and 10g for WotW (which is essentially a panic). Both these items are extremely useful in their own right, as they provide a slightly weaker version of the abilities that some builders already have. I think they should be accessible but not extremely easily to obtain as they should be a last resort when your main escape is already on cooldown.

Thank you for your thoughts @Phosphia, I look forward to looking into the other balance issues you have. And yes, this is the correct place to post them! I think it's best since balance is an ongoing discussion whereas bugs are just reports.

Thank you for the quick reply.
I'm relieved to hear that it wasn't intended for it to be purchasable with lumber as that would probably break the game in more ways than one. In the live version, the staff is set to 6 gold.

If 6 gold is cheap or expensive often depends on what kind of game you're playing. If you're playing public games where a death within the first two minutes isn't rare, then 6 gold is a good price. But if you play in-house and people actually know what they are doing, then 6 gold is quite cheap.

So where do you want to draw the line?


I know I use the staff a lot, but I must admit I don't often see other people using it. People are very different in what they believe is a priority for them to invest into - which is a good thing. That means that people think there are multiple viable options.

In the end of the day, I'm actually happy with the live version of the staff. Though that doesn't necessarily mean I'm correct. But I have found 6 gold to be a good price everything considered. (it's an invenstment that helps you only here and now, it doesn't help you long term, whereas you could have upgraded something. it's a real trade off) I probably would not invest more than 6-8 gold into a staff to be honest.

WotW
This one is a bit harder to balance as this is the first time it makes its appearance in the game. The builders have all been fine without this item so far and I do not see any changes to titans that would make this a necessary thing for builders to get come V.4.

It might be an unpopular opinion but I actually don't think we should have this item in the game. I think we have sufficient tools in place to out-play the titan. If we do keep this item in the game, I think it should be a rather high cost item that very experienced players can invest into if they believe they can pull something off with it that would make it worth the purchase. I don't think we should implement this as an item that we would begin seeing everyone using. I don't think Island Defense needs random boosts to people's characters all over the map in every game when the escape mechanics where in a quite good and balanced place prior to the update. But as you suggested, 10g probably would not break the game by any means.