[4.0.0] Island Defense: Tides of Redemption

[Stealer]

idk

6 and 4 imo, most builders only have 1 item slot.

[Phosphia]

Well I'm glad that we've established that it needs to be gold cost rather than lumber for those two items. It doesn't appear that people want to talk an awful lot about it either so I'll open another small topic.

Seeds

So far our stance on seeds has been pretty simple. They are 1x1 areas that can host a couple workers, sometimes with a shelter in it as well. They are always in nuke range. If you can pass straight through the seed and to the other side, the titan should be able to follow you shortly after.

The new seed to the top left does not fall into this category as you're able to pass through to the other side and end up in a place that the titan does not have easy access to. Is this seed too strong?

Personally I would like to see more changes that would allow for great players to stand out from just normal players. Everyone can walk through a 1x1 seed and be just fine. It's a lot harder to be clam and execute a jump correctly when the titan is slashing at your heels.

Made a quick video this morning, pardon the lazy quality I was very tired still.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBZqcK4mbuo

[Stealer]

tbh if you want more jumps give neco (preferably photos, he had a hard time understanding the difference between left and right) of the locations that would need to change.

[Phosphia]

There are many areas around the map that are never used for basing and some of them even never for lumber basing. We could add in some adjustments to have these areas serve a purpose. Here are some screen shots of some areas that usually serve no purpose.

http://imgur.com/g4uKweW,XlYV9zG,RpnLbIl,EbGbah6


Video example of simple jumps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmrGfpD ... e=youtu.be

Picture of the grid in the video: http://i.imgur.com/ZmaZ4AU.jpg

These examples can also be turned 90° clockwise so that wall-walking builders can make use of them as well. But then again, they have an edge already.


Or more interesting jumps like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Uor1O ... e=youtu.be

This would allow for more showcase of skill during game-play, and the titan would also be able to counter this by placing a ward, etc. If he is close, whereas there's no skill in running through a seed.

Picture of grid: http://i.imgur.com/H6N2GQN.jpg

[Neco]

http://imgur.com/g4uKweW,XlYV9zG,RpnLbIl,EbGbah6

These are locations that I use all the time.

That jump looks interesting.

[MuffinMan]

The new seed to the top left does not fall into this category as you're able to pass through to the other side and end up in a place that the titan does not have easy access to. Is this seed too strong?

An increase ward cast range or include a 2 or 3 unit wide path near by that the titan could take advantage of could balance this seed.

[Burn]

An increase ward cast range or include a 2 or 3 unit wide path near by that the titan could take advantage of could balance this seed.

Nope, not really. I agree that this path is pretty OP, but necessary. Top left is basically a death trap, if you have a main and a minion, it is super easy to trap a builder. It needed a way out, and the seed took care of that.

The problem with the top left area of the map is that since there is only two entrances/exits, and having only one good base there, any choke points between that base and the mound would make the base a pretty obvious pearl, and there would be multiple ways to get close to that base to wall off all the entrances to the base, unlike Eurobase or top right, where only a few walls could do that, and leaving a lot of escape paths. With more walls, meant more waste of lumber and time too.

This means that if I wanted to base top left, I had to base without these stalling walls and only have two entrances/exits, meaning the only way out from a 2 unit trap would be a staff of TP. I had a game where I had to control a player who didn't have gold as Morphling, and took the risk of basing top left and dying because of it.

TL;DR Top left needs a third way out (easy option), or more choke points (reconstructing entire top left).

-Burn

[ZimmeR]

Top left need a total rework imo (@neco I may suggest one later)

The third way was a good idea for this version but total rework is need.

[Burn]

Top left is basically the easiest place to trap a builder at the moment, requiring only two units to trap, and basically nowhere to juke.

Bot left requires 3 and maybe a pearl to check seeds.
Bot right requires 3 and pearls to check seeds and wall jumps.
Top right requires at least 2 units, but there is several chokes and includes a large area to juke, and chokes everywhere.

Top left needed a buff, it's fine.

-Burn

[Phosphia]

Top left is basically the easiest place to trap a builder at the moment, requiring only two units to trap, and basically nowhere to juke.

Bot left requires 3 and maybe a pearl to check seeds.
Bot right requires 3 and pearls to check seeds and wall jumps.
Top right requires at least 2 units, but there is several chokes and includes a large area to juke, and chokes everywhere.

Top left needed a buff, it's fine.

-Burn

This is what I believe is the problem. I don't think builders should have a 'right' as you put it, to have an easy escape from a titan + a minion. It should be the skill of a player to make sure that you have an easy escape from at least the titan. It should not be a 'given' that he has this. And now we're talking a Titan and a minion.

I think the problem is what I marked in red. The ability to juke. This is what I suggested earlier, the open space of top left was one of the areas that I mentioned to serve no purpose.

I think this area should be given something that allows a skillful player to juke the titan, but I don't think anyone has a right for an easy escape.

The worst player in the world can run through a seed just as well as the best would. It's not interesting game play. Adding something that a good player could take advantage of to juke the titan, however, would be an addition to good game play. This would also allow for a skilled titan to try to counter this.

[BeeKauzh]

go left side with main and camp between the seed and right side with minion+pearl, this seed not op

[Burn]

I think this area should be given something that allows a skillful player to juke the titan, but I don't think anyone has a right for an easy escape.

Phosphia please. All this mini-seed thing means is that titan has to do is expend an extra pearl or extra minion to prevent his "easy escape".

PS: It's not an easy escape if it's the same as every other "escapes", making it just an escape route that is easily blocked, and makes you a sitting duck if you choose to stay inside, it's like the connecting seed to the bot left of the mound, if you stay inside that circle lumber base, you will be royally fucked if the titan has 3 units.

-Burn

[Phosphia]

I think this area should be given something that allows a skillful player to juke the titan, but I don't think anyone has a right for an easy escape.

Phosphia please. All this mini-seed thing means is that titan has to do is expend an extra pearl or extra minion to prevent his "easy escape".

PS: It's not an easy escape if it's the same as every other "escapes", making it just an escape route that is easily blocked, and makes you a sitting duck if you choose to stay inside, it's like the connecting seed to the bot left of the mound, if you stay inside that circle lumber base, you will be royally fucked if the titan has 3 units.

-Burn

A player that knows what he is doing wouldn't position himself into such a situation if he knows the titan is walking around with all the minions. Besides, the titan would have to kill people first to get minions if you have forgotten that part. If he has not killed anyone this seed is extremely strong. Also only few titans leave mid unatended.

I say by the time the titan has 3 minions, as you point out, it would be about time that builders resort to basing don't you think. Basing is what counters minions, not having a ton of seeds to run through.

You are only supposed to kite so much. At some point you will need to settle down and stand your ground. That is what Island Defense is all about.

Either you try to kill the minion or you'll have to stand your ground. I don't think we should balance the map around the thought of the titan having so and so many minons chasing you.

[Burn]

Besides, the titan would have to kill people first to get minions if you have forgotten that part. If he has not killed anyone this seed is extremely strong.

Also only few titans leave mid unatended.

Irrelevant, who gives a shit. Using a single titan to kill a single builder is retarded, if the decent builder knows that the titan is aiming him, he wouldn't die in any other seeds with two entrances anyway.

I say by the time the titan has 3 minions, as you point out, it would be about time that builders resort to basing don't you think. Basing is what counters minions, not having a ton of seeds to run through.

One of my main points were that it is risky to base at top left without getting scouted and trapped, and the seed helped with that problem.

I believe all of your relevant points were already covered in my previous posts. This proves your lack of knowledge in this discussion, therefore, any further discussion with you would be redundant. Have a nice day.

-Burn

[Phosphia]

Irrelevant, who gives a shit. Using a single titan to kill a single builder is retarded, if the decent builder knows that the titan is aiming him, he wouldn't die in any other seeds with two entrances anyway.

Well, you sort of proved my point in this quote.

Besides, the titan would have to kill people first to get minions if you have forgotten that part.

The titan does not spawn with a minion. He has to kill a builder using only his single titan. I would have thought that wasn't news to you.

One of my main points were that it is risky to base at top left without getting scouted and trapped, and the seed helped with that problem.

I've never had this problem and top left is one of my favourite places to base.

I believe all of your relevant points were already covered in my previous posts. This proves your lack of knowledge in this discussion, therefore, any further discussion with you would be redundant. Have a nice day.

I tend to disagree. Also, there's no need to get all emotional. I'm just showing you both sides of the coin so that the implementation of the new map will be as we intend for it to be. The only thing you've proven is your inability to see something from more than one perspective.

This seed change will have an impact on things other than the rare occasion that you'll get scouted trying to base top left; leaving this seed as your only escape even though it's far away from the base. I think it is uncalled for to contribute into the discussion for other affected areas with only "Irrelevant, who gives a shit."


You need to draw a line somewhere when it comes to how effective the terrain is for juking/escaping the titan.

When should you rely on the terrain and when should you rely on either killing the minion or standing your ground with a base?
If you don't have that in the back of your head while mapping, it could quickly get unbalanced. I like to believe that thought is not irrelevant. If you implement something, consider all the areas of game play that is affected.

As for the 'issue' with getting scouted trying to base top left, it might be more interesting to add a small jump or something similar in the nearby area that people can work with rather than running off to a seed far away.. As I touched onto in a later post about how adding things that skilled players can take advantage of adds to a more interesting game play.

But either way, I'm not pushing any certain change. I'm just putting all the affected areas on the table for you to inspect and alternative options to consider.