Add Preventing King From Killing Units As A Rule.

[Lucky]

EDIT* ADDED A POLL
Hello,

I feel like this might have been addressed at one point, or maybe it is part of the rule and I just never knew. But this seems to happen in games and I think its cheap. Mostly in games where players are crossing, which is fine I guess do what you want. However they leak waves, the commons ones being 4/8/12 and if there was a send on that level of they had weak allies and only the valuer in the cross is left they have a bunch of units going to their king. So what these guys do is constantly target different units so the king does not kill them and wait for the valuer on their cross to tp to mid. I think this is abuse.

1. Because cross depending on your opinion of it I guess is already pretty abusive as it is. You break the game mechanics into simple "You value/I income" giving an advantage. It also abuses the gold because unlike a player who would leak a lot or a merc player, they still get gold off their bounty leaks. Its legal I get it whatever, just seems like we are tailoring the whole LTD playing experience for players who like to cross.

2. Technically it is delaying the game. Maybe not by 2-3 minutes, but not allowing the king to kill units does delay the game because you are waiting for a TP.

3. You are robbing the other team of king gold. Not allowing the king to kill is stealing gold from the other team.

4. If your cross strategy is that bad that you are leaking 30-40 on certain waves and having bad splits, we should not look the other way at your shady activity to try and regain some of that gold.

5. Splitting a cross on certain levels through sends and making the crossing team leak heavy and lose gold is one of the few counter measures an enemy team has against a cross build. So not protecting that seems silly.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[nabo.]

People can change targets or slow down king's motion somewhat as long as they dont juggle him and prevent him from attacking anything.

I do not understand your suggestion.

[supersexyy]

It's quite clear what his suggestion is nabo. It is to disallow switching targets with the king to prevent killing units (as the title suggests).

Thanks for pointing out the current rule though.

My opinion is that this rule would be an improvement, but overall I don't think extra rules is necessary for a pub bot.

[nabo.]

You mean switching targets to stall time by not killing them?
Ex. 10 creeps, each die supposedly in 3 hits, switch targets after only one hit?

[Lucky]

Well that would be certainly be an extension of it. Because it goes into a weird gray area kind of. What I am suggesting is like sexyy said. People micro the king's focus so it doesn't kill a single unit and they wait for their units to tp, depending on the lvl and type of unit (slow moving or not) that can be a bit. Currently legal. However if I had a maxed king on 12 and leak 15 to king i sit there for awhile and just switch focus in circles, technically not king juggling. I am sure some mod would slap a ban for delay of game, but I think its funny we draw a line between that and what I am suggesting. Especially since the purpose of micro on a kings focus is to delay him from killing units, taking gold from the enemy team and trying to salvage your own because a send strat from the enemy team worked.

[nabo.]

So lets say there are 20 leaks and cross units are taking some time to clear wave and tping mid. Other side's leak reach the king and someone micros the king changing targets to "delay" the kill. If the creeps die in one hit, they must be killed. If the creeps die in 2-3 hits...changing target is np. If the cross units tp mid too slow, then the already half damaged units have to be killed (switching target = any leak will die). If the cross units get in time and kill the half damaged units instead of the king, that is fine.

I dont see any problem in controlling king HOW you want except when taking advantage of the unit's mechanics and preventing it from attacking at all = king juggling. I consider microing king and changing target to minimize leak kills a legit strategy as long as the king continues to attack and not juggle.

[bit]

My opinion is that this rule would be an improvement, but overall I don't think extra rules is necessary for a pub bot.

this

[I_kill_satan]

I consider microing king and changing target to minimize leak kills a legit strategy as long as the king continues to attack and not juggle.

@nabo.

Imagine a situation: ur team leak 10 flesh golems and 1 kraken, all units died. Ur king with low attack switch target every turn, so all golems restore hp. Not juggling but obvios its abuse.

So that could be on 5 lvl with hawks+hermit for example etc.

[Krumme]

I consider microing king and changing target to minimize leak kills a legit strategy as long as the king continues to attack and not juggle.

@nabo.

Imagine a situation: ur team leak 10 flesh golems and 1 kraken, all units died. Ur king with low attack switch target every turn, so all golems restore hp. Not juggling but obvios its abuse.

So that could be on 5 lvl with hawks+hermit for example etc.

Say all creeps takes 5 hits to kill (example)
You start with hitting creep 1 one time, change to creep 2 and hit it once, then creep 3 and so on - then you reach creep 1 again and this time you have to kill it instead of changing to creep 2(in my opinion) - if that is not the case then I agree with this rule and even if this is the case I think this could clear up some misunderstandings in the rules
It is clear to see who abuses it but the thing is - how much do you really benefit from controlling king like this? 20 seconds TOPS which in most cases is barely nothing
Also being able to control the king is a part of the game so I don't see why you can't use the mechanics within the game. Making the king NOT attack by hitting too fast is on the other hand not a mechanic but an abuse as you prevent the original mechanic from working properly.

All in all I think this rule could clear up some mistakes and I don't see any harm in adding it

[I_kill_satan]

then you reach creep 1 again and this time you have to kill it instead of changing to creep 2

In my example, when u return to atack creep 1 it already restored hp by hermit aura and u cant kill him fast anymore

how much do you really benefit from controlling king like this? 20 seconds TOPS which in most cases is barely nothing

If u go yolo and u suggest then ur lumber income much more then ur enemy, even 20 seconds is very good support opportunity (but could be much more time and also continued several levels in a row). I saw this a lot of time in 1v1 vs different people when they do it on 5 or 8 lvl to get more time for lumbering and after that send very hard on 7 (like 3 bo, furb, hermit) and 10 lvls (huge mass militia).

Also, full team yolo theoretically could get a lot of time with leak about 60 creeps on lvl 7 - team max hp and regen, then very slow kill all this creeps. I didnt saw players who also switched target on 7 lvl like this to get like several minutes time but its possible and could give serious, maybe even imba advantage.

[Lucky]

I always kind of looked at the king juggling rule as game ruin. Because most of the time it is someone who is angry and prevents the king from attacking so he dies and their team loses. If the rule is also meant to include that king juggling is abuse because it gives you more time to lumber and it delays game, well then that is also what I am suggesting. It is just an added benefit that you might have crossed and have units at some point or another who will be teleporting to the middle.

[Lucky]

Here is an example from processed brqs.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=38111&p=162174&hilit=king+juggle#p162174
@ 19:10 on lvl 8 leak Beyond_Average micros king focus to gain lumber time (not a really bad one but thats the point, where do you draw the line?)
@36.45 on lvl 16 leak fissemanden does what is considered king juggling now, but it serves the same purpose? I don't get the difference, in both microing the king to not attack and microing him to go from one unit to the next both are not killing units for the same purpose?

[Mercy]

I can't say I agree with this.

King can only attack so much before a unit dies depending on attack level. Preventing king attacking fully is bannable, whereas switching should not be.

I don't think we need many more rules for a pub bot. We have to draw the line somewhere, or we're going to lose players. We've added many rules in the past few months, I think we need to slow down. (Standard modes, merc leaving bannable at 29 (full game, really, but the recent rule), banning those who leave with a heal that could have saved king, etc)

[I_kill_satan]

Preventing king attacking fully is bannable, whereas switching should not be.

So, if i, for example, will switch target on 16 lvl to get more time for dd, u say "good boy" to me?

[eldryan]

If you delay indefinitely, then you are juggling. If you change targets, you are not delaying at all (mostly) thus the comparison is kind of flawed. If there is a healing unit there, then you are preventing the king from killing units, which is juggling.