Gamemoderators

[Hutzu]

He doesn't need to specify his opinion, we understand him quite well. He just makes little sense.

As an analogy he shouldn't be complaining if a 50 year old person comes to his house and a) puts his house on fire b) kills his family c) steals items/money, because he lived all the rest of his life like a normal person (50x365 days [screw leapyears] = 18250 days). So what if he behaved bad that 1 day. That's nothing compared to 18249 days of being a normal citizen. Let that person even be a firefighter, police-officer or doctor.

And this wasn't just 1 game. He breaks a rule -> He gets punished. Then he ban dodges on 5 occasions, because he claims if all agree to the swap it would be ok. Which was of course nonsense. And ban-dodging has a standard ban-length of 1 year at ENT, and LIHL still is a part of ENT.

Quote from LIHL rules

In-House League Rules

The general EntGaming:Rules apply to the LIHL, unless abrogated by the specific rules below. For the forum, the general EntGaming:ForumRules are to be followed.

Quote from General Rules

Do not dodge your bans. Dodging is defined as playing on a different account while being banned on the so called 'main' account. Often caused by a (purposely triggered) change of the IP. Dodging is considered a major offensive equal to maphacking and is being treated as such.

And there is no lihl-rule abrogating ban-dodging. Thus it would be just to ban Fiji for a full year. We kept it at slightly more than 1.5 months. And guys, don't argue that (temp-)unvouch isn't the same as a (temp-)ban, because it is the same.

Edit: Agree with supersexyy that ban-length was arguable at first (the kick of achilles), 2 weeks was also mentioned internally. But just one additional week for ban-dodge is too low imo. Especially since I find ban-dodging a worse offense than kicking a player to avoid ELO-loss.

[Diablo_]

Let's leave this ENT ban dodge out of here

Do not dodge your bans. Dodging is defined as playing on a different account while being banned on the so called 'main' account. Often caused by a (purposely triggered) change of the IP. Dodging is considered a major offensive equal to maphacking and is being treated as such.

He wasn't banned on whole ENT, he didn't play on a different account, he didn't change his IP. Of course his ban dodge in LIHL also is a big no-go but it doesn't fulfil the "ENT ban dodge"-criteria.

We are still discussing Fijis case btw.

[supersexyy]

As reference beepboopbeep was banned for 2 weeks for dodging. Of course I am not a moderator any more but just posting my opinion as a (former) participant.

Compare the two cases:
- Fiji has more of a history of being banned
- Beep attempted to dodge subtly (using other people's accounts) while Fiji was trying to help get games started (knowing it will be noticed).

I guess these two can roughly cancel out?

[Hutzu]

I don't agree that it doesn't fit ENT's definition of ban-dodging, but let's move on.

Fiji wasn't trying to get games started. Among the 5 games he played, there was only 1 2s. The rest I don't consider helping games being started. Wouldn't be the first time that someone has to sit out.
I have no idea of Beep's history about that. Must have happened before I joint LIHL.

Edit: Found it https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=20609

Roughly the same. 20 days + 2 weeks = Mid January (instead of End of Janurary). Will keep that in mind. Thanks.

[ArMeDaNdDeAdLy]

If its 2 weeks for an active player like fiji it sounds fair to me

[SLSGuennter]

@armedanddeadly ... u rly cant make a difference in ban-length depending on activity. totaly unfair, rly.

[ArMeDaNdDeAdLy]

Yes you can when a player playes 20 games a month and another playes 200 its different ofc

[Hutzu]

@armedanddeadly Those are double-standards and therefore totally unfair. His activity plays absolutely no role in the judgement.

[BA_Fail]

I'd like to address some points that were brought up.

First of all, this league is basically made and run by the players. The rules should be as fair as possible, and they need to be there to discourage unethical actions from happening again. Kicking a player is such an instance, and anything over 2 weeks seems really excessive. As for why you can't give fiji a dc penalty as if he is the one who left is beyond me.

Along with this, rules should be accepted by the community. If there is ever a rule which is just plain stupid, it should be fought. There is a difference between making rules just to make them, and doing so to increase the amount of fun we can have as well as discourage people from taking advantage of the system. IMO intent is one of the most important things to consider when it comes to dealing with these cases.

Fiji apologizing shouldn't have an impact on his ban duration, unless it is a first offense.

I probably have been banned more than anybody here, but I'm not really sure about that. It just seems like a load of crap when you say that the duration is so long because of the offenses he has had. I'm pretty sure if I were to get banned again for something, I wouldn't get as much time as fiji did.

And as for the amount of games someone plays determining the ban length, it actually makes more sense than not taking it into account. If I only played one game a week and i was banned for 3 days, I really wouldn't care. There just isn't a reason to take it into account when the ban duration is going to be so long

[yolostyle]

Ba's comment regarding ban length totally right imo, activity should be considered when discussing ban length.


Why isn't it possible to make it about elo?

If someone does anything ban worthy, why not make it so that all afftected players benefit, similar to the existing DC pen?

In Example a 2s 15-15 elo

Fiji votekicks = Fiji -45 Elo
player 2 +15
player 3 +15
player 4 +15

In Example a 3s 15-15 elo
Fiji votekicks = Fiji -75 Elo
player 2 +15
player 3 +15
player 4 +15
player 5 +15
player 6 + 15

and so on...

This way activity isn t harmed.
Fiji got punished where it hurts him and all other players involved benefit as well.

[Diablo_]

It's technically not possible for us to alter Elo other than applying automated dc penalties (also only working IF someone indeed left early). Maybe this could be changed, but 1) that would be uakf.b's job so it would probably take very long to set something up and 2) I doubt that admins would agree to it.

Besides, Elo is supposed to show the player's skill so doing Elo penalties disturbs that goal hence we want to keep that to a minimum.

@ba 20 days for his inital ban might be long, but there's simply no excuse to kick a player during a running game (and especially not with the reason being getting outrolled ..). Extreme cases require extreme consequences, especially if it's by far not the first ban.

"Along with this, rules should be accepted by the community. If there is ever a rule which is just plain stupid, it should be fought. There is a difference between making rules just to make them, and doing so to increase the amount of fun we can have as well as discourage people from taking advantage of the system. IMO intent is one of the most important things to consider when it comes to dealing with these cases."

Are you talking about any specific rule? Because we are always open to change rules and I have no idea about what "plain stupid" rule you might be talking about.

"Fiji apologizing shouldn't have an impact on his ban duration, unless it is a first offense."
I disagree here, knowing that you did something wrong is a good step as it will increase the chances that you won't do it again.

"I probably have been banned more than anybody here, but I'm not really sure about that. It just seems like a load of crap when you say that the duration is so long because of the offenses he has had. I'm pretty sure if I were to get banned again for something, I wouldn't get as much time as fiji did."
You don't have the most bans in LIHL and you would, at least more or less, receive the same ban as Fiji for these rule breaks.

[BA_Fail]

Are you talking about any specific rule? Because we are always open to change rules and I have no idea about what "plain stupid" rule you might be talking about.

No i am not pointing at a specific rule, I had the impression from reading this that rules > the actual playing. Some of these rules are taken way too seriously when they shouldn't be. If there is ever a rule which is just plain stupid I will obviously say so, and I won't shut up about it unless it actually gets addressed. The problem I had was whether you guys actually decided on the 20 days or if some1 brought it up and everybody else just agreed, there is obviously a difference between the 2

"Fiji apologizing shouldn't have an impact on his ban duration, unless it is a first offense."
I disagree here, knowing that you did something wrong is a good step as it will increase the chances that you won't do it again.

Keyword being first offense, if it the third time somebody does it and they keep apologizing do they really learn their lesson?

"I probably have been banned more than anybody here, but I'm not really sure about that. It just seems like a load of crap when you say that the duration is so long because of the offenses he has had. I'm pretty sure if I were to get banned again for something, I wouldn't get as much time as fiji did."
You don't have the most bans in LIHL and you would, at least more or less, receive the same ban as Fiji for these rule breaks.

This starts getting into hypothetical situations, and I hope it does actually gets addressed like this. Problem is I get along with everybody quite well and most of the mods already know how I am like. This is the problem with politics especially here in the United States, those with influence all know each other and are way more lenient if something they did was wrong. Hell it is why almost everybody hates the police right now.

[BA_Fail]

Just as an aside, i trust the lihl admins, and i'm sure they will do the right thing.

Only problem i personally had was that hutzu was the one doing all the posting and it made it seem very biased as he wasn't an admin when i was active. This is a problem to me since I noticed that most new admins tend to take things too seriously and are usually harsher.

Again this is not the case, i am not trying to make a big deal out of this. If anything, i'd just like people to realize that rules are there for a reason, and being too harsh or too lenient can be detrimental

[willie64]

Im sorry, not being constructive on that one. Regardless.

Choices have been made, he made them with a clear thought knowning it would have consequences and still accepted the choice he made.
Therefor a 2 week(or even +) ban isnt unrealistic. Fiji go watch a movie, and clear yur mind. Come back when ban is lifted, ill vouch for Fiji to reduce ban time. Give that a thought. No need to drop an active player for an entire season.

[Diablo_]

We decided to reduce Fijis ban to the 30th of december. That's not much longer than the initial 20 days ban.

Case closed, archived